U-995 in Laboe, Germany sidetrip

[Carotio]

The ferry Rødby-Puttgarten carries both the cars and train passengers, and it's about 1 hour.

The only ferry travelling to and from Kiel to a Danish port was to Bagenkop on the island of Langeland, but the route has been closed down AFAIR, besides it would not be a convenient route.

So as I see it, there are three choices for Kiel-Copenhagen:

1) by car, over the Rødby-Puttgarten ferry

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten

3) by train up through Jutland, over Funen, across the Great Belt Bridge and tunnel and over Sealand ending up in Copenhagen. It's a longer route, but you'll see more.

With few members, the car option may be good, but with a larger number, I would suggest the train option as the most cosy way to travel for a group. Besides, there MAY be group discounts, but I don't know it for sure.

[Hitman]

The main problem to visit U-995, as I see it, is that we would need the full day to go there and back from Copenhagen. That means that we should be in our hotel at Copenhagen the night of the 15th, then spend the whole 16th going to Laboe, visit the museum and back. We could rent one or several cars for this.

The other alternative is flying to Hamburg, then going to Copenhagen and visit U-995 on the way, as Neal suggests. The problem for this alternative is that you would either need to go back to Hamburg to pick your flight when the meeting is over, or have your return flight start from Copenhagen, which is usually more expensive.

Last but not least, Hamburg has many less combinations as it is a smaller Airport than Copenhagen, and for example there are no direct flights from Madrid or Barcelona to Hamburg, so I would need to pick at least 3 flights to arrive there

I'm inclined to think that the best alternative is therefore making a full day trip and back from Copenhagen. Only that way we will have a relaxed visit and be able to enjoy everything plus then start the meeting the 17th perfectly on schedule

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I'm inclined to think that the best alternative is therefore making a full day trip and back from Copenhagen. Only that way we will have a relaxed visit and be able to enjoy everything plus then start the meeting the 17th perfectly on schedule

That works fine for me. I can see the total time in the car would be less for us Americans if we land in Copenhagen the morning of the 16th and take a trip to Laboe by car, meet up with the German and Euro members who are driving in and then return to Cop.

[nikimcbee]

Nix the ferry idea, it dawned on me you can't see the country from the ferry.

[Skybird]

Your Hamburg plan might be better, Neal.

I just checked with Google Earth.

Kobenhavn - Laboe, if taking the trip by car via Fehmarn ferry, would be around 260 km road-distance, 18-20 of it would be passing the Fehmarn belt by ferry, which consumes a lot of time for those 20 km: waiting for ferry, get on ferry, ferry travels, get off ferry. Leaves you with 240 km on land. Of these, practically all distance you have to do on German soil would NOT be the Autobahn, but smaller (and slower) Land- and Bundesstrassen. I do not know the Danish road indices, whether they are highways or not. But in germany it is not a 130+ km/h flight you would do. I would estimate the total time you spend for one trip 3-5 hours, if you do not have to wait for the ferry, do not lose orientation, always pick the right road. Multiply by two, for you want to drive back to Kobenhavn, too.

The road-distance airport Hamburg - Laboe is close to 100 km, almost all of it Autobahn. If all goes well and traffic plays ball, 1 hour.

Does not compare!


Edit:
And on the idea of a train travel, I checked German railway information. The train goes from Kiel down to Lübeck, from there to Fehmarn island, then the ferry, and Denmark. Time: 5:20 and more, 2-4 changes, there is no highspeedtrain available.

Train from Hamburg Central station to Kiel Central station: 1,5 hours railtime. The rail station in Hamburg is 8 km from the airport, direct line. The station in Kiel is at the southern dead end of the bay, Laboe is on the bay's northern opening to the sea. All in all from Hamburg airport to Laboe probably 2,5-3 hours, waiting times not included.

[Onkel Neal]

So, you're saying land in Hamburg, drive autobahn to Laboe, about an hour, then drive to Copenhagen via the ferry or the long way?

We would still have to factor in the return to Hamburg at the end of the trip.

[Skybird]

No flights to the US from Copenhagen?

This is what I would do if needing to arrove from america:

US-Hamburg, plane
Hamburg-Kiel, rail or car/Autobahn
Kiel - Kopenhagen via rail (more relaxed travelling than with car)
Kopenhagen-US.

Since I do not like cars, I would do it all by rail. Via the eastern route (Fehmarn ferry), it seems you do not win or lose much time when using car or railway, but for a group it is the more relaxd way to travel)

An alternative for some Europeans may be to land at Lübeck, a smaller regional airport with flights schedules to Dublin, London Stanssted, Mailand, Frankfurt Hahnau (that is at Frankfurt but is not Frankfurt International!!!), and at least in the past: Barcelona and Alicante (I think that was cancleed some time ago, I'm not sure). From Lübeck via train to kopenhagen, meeting the visitors from Laboe returning to Denmark in Lübeck when they have to switch trains in Lübeck anyway, or going from Lübeck to Laboe and meeting the group there. - The idea is that interested people go early and have some time in Lübeck/Old Town, one day or so. One would hate to miss that place. It's the most beautiful city in all Germany's north. Plus the world's capital for marcipane production.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Carotio

The ferry Rødby-Puttgarten carries both the cars and train passengers, and it's about 1 hour.

The only ferry travelling to and from Kiel to a Danish port was to Bagenkop on the island of Langeland, but the route has been closed down AFAIR, besides it would not be a convenient route.

So as I see it, there are three choices for Kiel-Copenhagen:

1) by car, over the Rødby-Puttgarten ferry

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten

3) by train up through Jutland, over Funen, across the Great Belt Bridge and tunnel and over Sealand ending up in Copenhagen. It's a longer route, but you'll see more.

With few members, the car option may be good, but with a larger number, I would suggest the train option as the most cosy way to travel for a group. Besides, there MAY be group discounts, but I don't know it for sure.

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten There is a train that takes the direct route across the Fehmarn bay?? Are you sure?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

There is a train that takes the direct route across the Fehmarn bay?? Are you sure?

That is true. The routes I linked all go over that ferry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogelfluglinie

Since German Railway lists this route as default, it is the faster one (faster than going North and over land and then do the island-hopping). Prices for one way ticket vary from 63 to 88 euros, depending on the train(s) you take. 0-3 changes. Ironically, the trip with 3 changes is the fastest (5:08).

There might be another alternative: renting a small bus with driver. Somebody in Denmark would have to check the prices for that. If the group is big enough, and while train tickets already would cost the single person around 140 Euros for moving there and back, it might be an alternative for you.

You really want to jump off the airplane on the 16th, then embark on the Kiel trip the same day, move back to Kopenhagen, again the same day, and then continue with the meeting the next day? Sounds like stress, pure stress, Neal.

[Carotio]

Yes, Neal, I'm sure as Skybird also wrote. I used to make a trip to Lübeck once, and I'm pretty sure the train embarked the ferry.

I also think it can be a stress day, but then again how many times does one have the option to go to Laboe as someone living far away. I live relatively close, so I'm not sure I will participate in that one-day trip, but if you really wanna go, then do it.

As Skybird suggested, I have visited the homepage for Avis, a rental office. One of many, I have to say. But just as an example.

3 screencaps below.

You'll see on the map that you have about 163 km between Copenhagen Airport (Kastrup Lufthavn) and Rødbyhavn:


And the prizes for vans:


For the 9 person van, more in detail:


That is 2,122 DKK for the rent and the first 100 km. Extra km is 3.60 DKK. And the route in Denmark is ((163+163)-100) = 226 km * 4.50 DKK = 1017 DKK + 2,122 DKK = 3139 DKK. Then you also have the extra km in Germany. But sofar it's 348,78 DKK per person in the van.

[Hitman]

There might be another alternative: renting a small bus with driver. Somebody in Denmark would have to check the prices for that. If the group is big enough, and while train tickets already would cost the single person around 140 Euros for moving there and back, it might be an alternative for you.

Ohhh yes that is fantastic idea

We get rid of the need to meet the exact schedule of the train, and we get full service from the airport or hotel to Laboe and back. Even if it costs as much as the train or more I think that would be really worth it!!!
Plus the people who arrive with jet-lag can have a sleep during the trip if they feel so

Let us list all people who would be interested in that, and then we can see if someone from Danemark can rent the bus for all of us.

Many thanks for the input Skybird

[Skybird]

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

I looked up the web for offers of bus companies to get an idea of how much it would cost, but they gave no clues on it - somebody in Denmark better files a local company around Copenhagen a request with date and destination, they then will reply with a cost offer. I have no idea what it would be like.

The ferries over the belt go twice an hour, the passage lasts ~50 minutes. That is for cars AND trains, of course. Roadkilometers from ferry to Laboe is ~100km, almost nothing of that is Autobahn, most is Land- and Bundestrasse. You need to orientate yourself, and need to find your way around and in Kiel's north. Depending on traffic, before you can embark on the parking lot at Laboe museum give those 100km 2-3 hours. Third, add the Danish side of the trip, I don'T know what kind of road you can move on from ferry to Kopenhagen. Since the road-distance is even more, also give it let'S say 2 hours minimum. I think you should not expect to make the trip anywhere below 5-5,5 hours minimum if going with car yourself. The shortest train trip is 5:08, the other train options with less changes are around 5,5 to 5,75 hours.

That is 11 hours of riding car or train in Kopenhagen and Kiel, all in one day. Add the arrival time for those just embarking from plane. Add jetlag. Add the time you spend in Laboe.

If I were you, I would add the 15th september to the whole timetable for the operation. Such stunts like planned so far I found inviting when I was at school. I would not like them anymore these days. Guys, some of you travel around half the globe - and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? This is not the sprint at the Olympics, but it is your money... Take some more time.

[Hitman]

and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...?

What better mood to enter a 1944 Type VIIC U-Boat?

Wouldn't amaze me if at the yell of Alaaaaaaaaaaarmmmmm during the visit, all of us instinctively run to the forward compartment leaving the museum guide astonished

[gandalf71]

Hi Guys,

good to hear that you consider to visit U-995 in Laboe during this years´ SubSim Meeting, really hope that I´ll make it there to meet you.

One of your questions was, what might be interesting in the vicinity of U-995 right? Depending on how much time you can afford, there are several interesting places to go, so that area makes perhaps also sense for a complete future European Subsim Meeting.

POIs I know in that area, but have not visited all of them till now

- Marine Ehrenmal (Navy Cenotaph) with attached Museum - directly vis-á-vis of the U-995, is certainly a must go. Many interesting exhibits e.g. the open "Torpedovorhalterechner" (TDC) of U-995, screw of german cruiser "Prinz Eugen" (glows in the dark by itself ... just kidding!), many flags and historical information, tons of models.

- U-Boot Ehrenmal (U-Boat Memorial) Möltenort - roughly 5km away from U-995. All names of German U-Boat men who died in WW1 and WW2 and also the men who died on U-Hai (former U-2365). Those who´ve played SH3 with GWX expansion know that memorial next to the waterline.

- HDW wharf (Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems) in Kiel - ca. 15km away from U-995, it´s the place where the current german submarines are built. It is possible to get guided tours but we maybe need the support of an organization e.g. like the DMB (Deutscher Marine Bund, German Navy Association) to get the permission for such a visit

- sewer ports Kiel-Holtenau - entrance to Kiel canal - many big ships on travel

and in a bigger circle:

- U-11 (Type 205) in Burgstaaken (Fehmarn) - roughly 80km from Kiel (lies next to the way to Rodby ferry) - open as a museum

- "U-434" (Russian Tango class submarine) in Hamburg - ca. 100km from Kiel

- Marineschule Flensburg-Mürwik (Naval Academy) - ca. 100km from Kiel - museum and library, many historic uniforms, history of the german navy. This academy is still part of german naval officers education and all U-Boot officers went through that school. It was also the seat of government of Adm. Dönitz in the last days of WWII.
Open to public only on Tuesday afternoons and closed due to renovation until June 2009 (doesn´t matter though)

And last but not least there is a very cozy and rural countryside around Kiel with many lakes, good for a short holiday trip e.g. for cycling.
Hamburg also has many more interesting places to go, as you can expect from Germany´s 2nd largest city.

If you have questions or are in need of any support organzing things, don´t hesitate to contact me.

Cheers,
Michael

P.S.:

Many thanks to Neal! For this fabulous Subsim coffe mug, it reached me on Saturday!

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

I looked up the web for offers of bus companies to get an idea of how much it would cost, but they gave no clues on it - somebody in Denmark better files a local company around Copenhagen a request with date and destination, they then will reply with a cost offer. I have no idea what it would be like.

The ferries over the belt go twice an hour, the passage lasts ~50 minutes. That is for cars AND trains, of course. Roadkilometers from ferry to Laboe is ~100km, almost nothing of that is Autobahn, most is Land- and Bundestrasse. You need to orientate yourself, and need to find your way around and in Kiel's north. Depending on traffic, before you can embark on the parking lot at Laboe museum give those 100km 2-3 hours. Third, add the Danish side of the trip, I don'T know what kind of road you can move on from ferry to Kopenhagen. Since the road-distance is even more, also give it let'S say 2 hours minimum. I think you should not expect to make the trip anywhere below 5-5,5 hours minimum if going with car yourself. The shortest train trip is 5:08, the other train options with less changes are around 5,5 to 5,75 hours.

That is 11 hours of riding car or train in Kopenhagen and Kiel, all in one day. Add the arrival time for those just embarking from plane. Add jetlag. Add the time you spend in Laboe.

If I were you, I would add the 15th september to the whole timetable for the operation. Such stunts like planned so far I found inviting when I was at school. I would not like them anymore these days. Guys, some of you travel around half the globe - and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? This is not the sprint at the Olympics, but it is your money... Take some more time.

Thanks, Sky, for the details.

Hitman, et all, how does this sound?

Americans leave Monday 14th and fly into Copenhagen on early morning in Tuesday 15th. One day to rest up, see a little of the town, and get plenty of rest that night and solve the jet lag. Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry. See U-995, meet up with German and other western Euro members who are driving in. Then we take the train/van back OR ride back with people who have cars. If there are two or three Euro drivers, we probably will not need the train on the return trip.

We have plenty of time to finalize this, we will have better idea of who is driving in, and we can get exact train schedules. We could rent a car/bus in Cop. and drive to Laboe as a group, but then we will need to return it. If we have enough drivers meeting us at Laboe, it could save money and be more fun to train/driver.

McBeck is our Danish rep.and Carotio can also be our Danish point man. Sounds like Skybird, Gandalf and Lurchie could be excellent German liasons.