U-864 is finally being raised!

[Letum]

Originally Posted by stabiz

I totally disagree. They fought for their country. If Himmler sank in a one man sub full of mercury, I would agree that a saluting band would be wierd.

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?
They certainly didn't fight for the freedom loving, peaceful or humane part.

The allies fought for those parts of Germany, not the German army.

The men entombed in U864 fought for much less desirable aspects of Germany. That
makes them human and does not lessen the tragedy of their death, but it does not
bring them any honor, glory or righteousness.

[Hitman]

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?

For their families. I have readed lots of books with 1st person accounts and have many friends whose grandfather fought in WW2, and what all of them will tell you is the same: They fought for victory because defeat would mean the terror and chaos for their beloved ones. More than anything, they feared the Red Army and in the eastern front war on the defensive was desperate because of that. They knew what came with the invasion of the Red Army: Death, rape and destruction of everything they loved, mainly in a horrible and saddist way.

BTW incidentally the russians thought the very same of the "german hordes" and also fought the german army desperately because of the same reasons. Not because of being "good bolschevists".

Politicians start wars, most soldiers just obbey and once the disaster has started, they don't want their families to be in the losing side. Just that.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by Hitman

For their families. I have readed lots of books with 1st person accounts and have many friends whose grandfather fought in WW2, and what all of them will tell you is the same: They fought for victory because defeat would mean the terror and chaos for their beloved ones. More than anything, they feared the Red Army and in the eastern front war on the defensive was desperate because of that. They knew what came with the invasion of the Red Army: Death, rape and destruction of everything they loved, mainly in a horrible and saddist way.

BTW incidentally the russians thought the very same of the "german hordes" and also fought the german army desperately because of the same reasons. Not because of being "good bolschevists".

Politicians start wars, most soldiers just obbey and once the disaster has started, they don't want their families to be in the losing side. Just that.

exactly

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Politicians start wars, most soldiers just obbey and once the disaster has started, they don't want their families to be in the losing side. Just that.

I'm sure if that was the case for some in the German military, then it makes them
honorable people in so far as they had good intentions, however, it is a big leap
from that to say that they deserve military honors.

As humans they may have wanted just to protect their family, but as soldiers in the
German military, they where trying to invade most of Europe and facilitate genocide.
These where he military objectives for them.

Certainly honor them as humans, scared about their families future etc. but not as
soldiers taking part in a utterly unjust war; there is no honor in that.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

I'm sure if that was the case for some in the German military, then it makes them
honorable people in so far as they had good intentions, however, it is a big leap
from that to say that they deserve military honors.

As humans they may have wanted just to protect their family, but as soldiers in the
German military, they where trying to invade most of Europe and facilitate genocide.
These where he military objectives for them.

Certainly honor them as humans, scared about their families future etc. but not as
soldiers taking part in a utterly unjust war; there is no honor in that.

On the other hand even in WW2 when the situation allowed for it enemy soldiers were occasionally given military funerals, so I see no reason not to let the Germans honor their U-864 dead if it so chooses.

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by August

On the other hand even in WW2 when the situation allowed for it enemy soldiers were occasionally given military funerals, so I see no reason not to let the Germans honor their U-864 dead if it so chooses.

I agree with August whole heartedly. Their grave is being disturbed after this many years. Yes for good reason but, it's still being disturbed

[Schroeder]

@Letum

If the UK should ever start an unjust war and draft you I bet you will just say "I don't want to take part in this!" and bravely meet the firing squad....

(I know the U-boat crews were not drafted, but everyone who didn't volunteer was drafted and likely sent to the infantry.)

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

@Letum

If the UK should ever start an unjust war and draft you I bet you will just say "I don't want to take part in this!" and bravely meet the firing squad....

I believe I would, but that is besides the point.

I'm not saying the u-boat crews made any bad personal decisions. I just don't think
that they did anything that warrens military honor.
Remembrance of their death as humans, yes. Honoring the sacrifice they made for
the Third Reich, no.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Letum

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?
They certainly didn't fight for the freedom loving, peaceful or humane part.

The allies fought for those parts of Germany, not the German army.

The men entombed in U864 fought for much less desirable aspects of Germany. That
makes them human and does not lessen the tragedy of their death, but it does not
bring them any honor, glory or righteousness.

It still makes them soldiers and as such they deserve a burrial with soldiers honours.

Originally Posted by Letum

What part of their country do you think they where fighting for?
They certainly didn't fight for the freedom loving, peaceful or humane part.

The allies fought for those parts of Germany, not the German army.

The men entombed in U864 fought for much less desirable aspects of Germany. That
makes them human and does not lessen the tragedy of their death, but it does not
bring them any honor, glory or righteousness.

Unluckily I have to correct you here. The allies did not fight for any german or german group/part, no matter if Nazi or the numerous but small and isolated german resistance groups. Despite parts of these groups trying to get in contact with the allies, they never really gave them any hope. Chruchill was actually afraid of Hitler beeing killed for this would have ment a possible compromise in the allied war goals, the unconditional surrender of Germany. You also may want to check the Morgenthau Plan, which upon it's release caused great uproar in Germany and was one reason why the german soldiers fought on to the very bitter end even in the west.

As to the problem at hand, if military honors or not, that's a difficult question. Modern day Germany has a problem with military per se. There are no heroes in todays german military, up until 2009 there weren't even any "fallen" soldiers in the Bundeswehr, just "accidently killed" ones. The reinistatement of the iron cross was declined for some ugly new medal without any reputation or feel of achievement to it. Within such an environment honoring any soldiers from WW2 is very difficult, unless they were proven members of some anti Hitler/Nazi Organisation. Even I am not yet quite sure how to deal with this. On the one hand these ppl more often then not just fought to protect (by all they knew) their country. Many many soldiers nevertheless sympathized with the NAZI regime. The U_boat arm at the start was the least NAZI brand of arms for sure, but that changed from 43 onwards when the old crews were send to the bottom and new recuits were mostly die hard nazi fanatics. It's not a question of black and white, but lots and lots of different shades of grey. Some ppl certainly deserve propper honoring, some certainly do not. And it's not always clear how to decide that.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Unluckily I have to correct you here. The allies did not fight for any german or german group/part, no matter if Nazi or the numerous but small and isolated german resistance groups.

It could be argued that we fought for your future just as much as we fought for our
own survival. Better a Germany divided as per Morgenthau, than a Germany under
fascist rule.

Even if the Morgenthau Plan came to fruition and was still in place today, it could be
argued you should be grateful to those who bought it about if the alternative is the
survival of fascism in Germany.

I'm not convinced that Germany would be in a better place now if there had been a
conditional peace agreement in 1943.

Originally Posted by Letum

It could be argued that we fought for your future just as much as we fought for our
own survival. Better a Germany divided as per Morgenthau, than a Germany under
fascist rule.

Even if the Morgenthau Plan came to fruition and was still in place today, it could be
argued you should be grateful to those who bought it about if the alternative is the
survival of fascism in Germany.

I'm not convinced that Germany would be in a better place now if there had been a
conditional peace agreement in 1943.

I am not sure how to respond to this. Though at first glance I'd agree to you, at least when it comes to the current generations of germans, I think we were talking about the folks back then, and they certainly would have not agreed with that. And even though I consider democracy and human rights as some of the most important achievements in human history, I do not give it the holy sanction of them beeing the only important factors in defining the well beeing of a country. The german empire, for example, was not a democracy, but it was a country build on the principles of justice nevertheless. The justice system of the holy roman empire had a reputation of not making destinction between nobles and peasants when cases were brought to court, one contributing factor to the german tendency to be rather trustworthy of their government and not as willing to revolt as in was the case in other countries, which came biting us in our asses when the Nazis took over. Whenever germans started to revolt big time, the case of national "unification" was the most dominant one, 1918 beeing the sole exception to that rule. The Morgenthau Plan in this would have been much worse then the partition of Germany had been anyways.

So, I am grateful for what the allies did, but I am certainly not grateful because ppl like you tell me "you should be", or because I think the allies back then were of any morale superiourity in their goals for this war. The only ppl I'd shake hands with are the soldiers and all the other folks that took the burden to go to war for their own private reasons, mostly idealistic ones, willing to risk their lives for these. Everything else just served the political and economical goals of Russia, England and the US respectivly.
In this we actually have to thank the Russians, without their opposition to the US and the american politics to contain communism, Germany would have faced a much worse fate me thinks. And this would have led to huge problems nowadays.

[Letum]

Just to avoid confusion, I said "It could be argued that" because that isn't necessarily my view.