The Case of Admiral Graf Spee

Yes I agree it's desperate way of fight. But why a warship is not allowed to be fully repaired in neutral harbour if it even can't normaly sail ? Damn Hague convention is ****!

To loose such a ship in such way ? Common! there had to be a way out without loosing it ?!

On my opinion it could of been enough to repair engines, this was a fast ship and it had big chances breaking away from a pursuing cruisers.
After that a local intel could be done by temporarily recruiting let say a local fisherman with his boat and a german sailor to gather info about how many warships are waiting outside the harbour and which path to choose for escape at night.

I don't believe it was no choise but to scuttle the ship. There was at least a few.

[kiwi_2005]

Why did he shoot himself though was that the honorable thing to do or maybe he was just saving the Gestapo from doing it:hmm: Thats the sad part he saves his crew ok so he lost his ship but lives is more important than a piece of metal. Then he shoots himself.

[AntEater]

Your characterisations of the RN cruisers are a bit off:
The Leander class did not have "destroyer guns", but rather the usual light cruiser 6" (15,2 cm).
The Leander is the archtypical light cruiser, after which pretty much every other nations 1920s-30s cruiser (except for the US and Japan) was modelled until the japanese kicked off the "heavy light cruiser" race.

County class cruisers were neither slow nor heavily armoured.
Cumberland had a heavier belt armour than Graf Spee, but not much, and was faster than Graf Spee.
You can't really say she was "old" (commissioned 1928) in a navy that still had that many WW1 vintage ships at the time.

ALL RN ships at River plate were faster than Graf Spee, at least in Sprints.
The great advantage of the pocket battleships was not their sprint speed, but their sustained speed and fuel economy.
A pocket battleship could operate at a sustained speed of over 20 knots for weeks without refueling.

Originally Posted by AntEater

Your characterisations of the RN cruisers are a bit off:
The Leander class did not have "destroyer guns", but rather the usual light cruiser 6" (15,2 cm).
The Leander is the archtypical light cruiser, after which pretty much every other nations 1920s-30s cruiser (except for the US and Japan) was modelled until the japanese kicked off the "heavy light cruiser" race.

County class cruisers were neither slow nor heavily armoured.
Cumberland had a heavier belt armour than Graf Spee, but not much, and was faster than Graf Spee.
You can't really say she was "old" (commissioned 1928) in a navy that still had that many WW1 vintage ships at the time.

ALL RN ships at River plate were faster than Graf Spee, at least in Sprints.
The great advantage of the pocket battleships was not their sprint speed, but their sustained speed and fuel economy.
A pocket battleship could operate at a sustained speed of over 20 knots for weeks without refueling.

So explain me how on earth Deutchland class cruiser which top speed was 28.5 knots managed to escape two Leander class (HMS Ajax & HMS Achiles) light cruisers and one York-class (HMS Exeter) heavy cruiser where all of them could maintain ~ 32 knots before reaching Montevideo ?

[AntEater]

I'm no river plate expert, but top speed depends on Sea State, the heavier a ship the more it can keep up its top speed in heavy seas.

Fuel. I suppose the british burned a lot in chasing Graf Spee and during the battle, while the fuel consumtion of the Graf Spee didn't change that much.
I'm not sure Graf Spee made 28 knots in 1939.
Real top speed for the Deutschland Class was something between 26 and 28 mostly, but as I said, they could keep that up for weeks.
A nominal top speed is something not really as fixed as technical data might suggest.
As both sides fired off a lot of ammunition, the ships were considerably lighter than a standard combat load.
On the other hand, both the british and germans had spend quite some time at sea (the british even more) and the hulls must've been fouled up quite a bit.

Also, the british did not want to catch up with Langsdorff. Exeter was by all means out of action and the two Leanders were not able to fight it out with a pocket battleship.
They were shadowing Langsdorff, as light cruisers are supposed to do.

The same situation (without a battle) unfolded with Admiral Scheer in 1940.
Kapt. Krancke more or less duped the whole Royal Navy in the indian Ocean and South Atlantic, and succeeded to escape a far larger force than Langsdorff had against him.

[A Very Super Market]

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.

He was also denied any good information about the odds that he faced. He wasd not allowed to do a recon with a local sea plane and he believed rumors that were put out by the British that there was a large force off shore waiting for him.

With an exhausted crew, a damaged ship with low ammo and no where to go, you can see that his options were limited!

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

You forget that Langsdorff did not have the fuel to get to Germany, nor the ammunition, and was trapped in Montevideo. Her damage was mostly in the engines, so I doubt she could have managed full speed.

Is it a problem when your in the harbour to get fuel AND to repair engines ?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Contact

So explain me how on earth Deutchland class cruiser which top speed was 28.5 knots managed to escape two Leander class (HMS Ajax & HMS Achiles) light cruisers and one York-class (HMS Exeter) heavy cruiser where all of them could maintain ~ 32 knots before reaching Montevideo ?

She didn't escape them. They shadowed her all the way. They were in much worse shape than Graf Spee after the battle, and further engagement would have been foolhardy when reinforcements were on the way.

Remember that, from a tactical standpoint, Graf Spee won the battle.

Find a copy of Battle Of The River Plate, by Dudley Pope.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-River-P...1979889&sr=1-2

It will explain everything.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

She didn't escape them. They shadowed her all the way. They were in much worse shape than Graf Spee after the battle, and further engagement would have been foolhardy when reinforcements were on the way.

Remember that, from a tactical standpoint, Graf Spee won the battle.

Find a copy of Battle Of The River Plate, by Dudley Pope.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-River-P...1979889&sr=1-2

It will explain everything.

Thanks, will check it out now

Also the Great story of Graf Spee is here:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Why did he shoot himself though was that the honorable thing to do or maybe he was just saving the Gestapo from doing it:hmm: Thats the sad part he saves his crew ok so he lost his ship but lives is more important than a piece of metal. Then he shoots himself.

It was part of a navy (and civil) honor code of the captain going down with his ship. Langsdorf was such a man of honor, you see this in all his actions, down to his treatment of prisoners. I cann only imagine what it must have been like to see his ship beeing destroyed like that, it certainly was disgraceful with ppl sheering on the shores for having a good afternoon spectacle. Not exactly the way a captain envisions his ship's end. But this will remain speculative.

That said, I always considered honor for honors sake instead of an actual application to real life and common sense as superficial and sometimes dangerous. The european aristocratic and military honors as well as far east bushido style honors are good examples of that. Good men die for nothing but pride.