News from Gaza, well, not exactly... LOL

[Carotio]

Seriously, I think we all can agree on one thing:

the only innocent victims in this conflict are the children (and animals), no matter which side of the border they live.

The adults are either actively part of it as in fighting or morally part of it by supporting the attacks on the other side. Few people protest against the attacks against the opposite side.

Ask around on both sides, practically nobody will say that they feel sorry for the innocent on the opposite side.

It's very sad.

[Kapt Z]

Oh, that's hilarious!:rotfl:

I bet the most hardline of those Sharia guys secretly have a bigger collection of porn than a college frat house.

[Skybird]

If Israel is driving this until the end and with objectives fulfilled, they have my support, but if they prematurely break off too early while acchieving their objectives is in range, I will not support them, and condemn them for having caused a lot of chaos all for nothing. right now it seems they have learned from their mistakes in Lebanon, and corrected them one by one: months of planning, much better intel, better military preparation, and the determination to not allow the presence of civilians hindering them to target Hamas terrorists. Note that that Palestinians in the Westbank remain in a surprising relative silence over what is happening in the Gazastrip. It may have something to do with Hamas going into hospitals to torture, mutilate and murder wounded members of Fatah in their beds. However, a state for Palestinians is far away agai n now. Palestinians in Gaza and the Westbank are almost two different people, with Gazanians being much closer to Egyptians anyway. Many open bills between both Palestinian tribes, which will all be payed in blood. My generation will not see a settling of these issues, and the generation after us probably also not. The expectation of peace in the socalled "Holy Land" remains to be a complete illusion. They will keep on hacking away at each other, and if they would not get modern weapons anymore, they would use rocks, spears and clubs. It's the first global mental asylum under management of the globe's biggest lunatic of all, the UN. Currently I think 7 UN missions are running inthe region, focussing on Palestinians, Israel, and Lebanon. Now they plan the 8th one and really assume that would do the trick where the other 7 fail. - "And even if the hope lasts only one day long, so it still has lived nevertheless: Hallelujah! "

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

I`am not attacking anyone , i just post my point of view. I also have no problem with different point of view, even if its a false information.

Sorry, I was not directing that at you in particular. I know how heated the Israeli-Palestinian discussions get.

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Carotio, that's Al Qaeda's rhetoric. "People in X country support their government so they're a legitimate target".

Well, that's not only the rhetoric of Al Quada. That's pretty much the rhetoric of any agressor.

Israel use it in the current situation against Gaza, like in: Hamas is hiding between civilians, so if these civilians don't like Hamas people, they should throw them out of their houses/neighborhood, and if they don't do that, then who gives a f*ck if a few civilians would die, when Israelean military makes a strike on a Hamas hideout.

And that is not only in this conflict, but in all.

It still makes me sick when innocent people die, but when agressors are hit themselves, well, then I guess it's just Nemesis striking back.

In any case: oh, well, it ain't me who dies, so WTF...
Pardon my sarcasm...

PS: nothing personal

[Skybird]

My greatest worry is not Mikhayl's usual and forseeable lament, but that while Israeli generals recommend to press on, Olmert, Livny and Barak could decide to prematurely stop the fight to serve their three very different political tactical calculations for the coming Israeli elections, where they are effectively rivals. If they stop the war now just because they think they can improve their chances that way, heaven and hell should slay them with thunderbolts and hailstorm for this waste of opportunity, destruction and military operation. Since Gaza is an isolated, limited place, Hamas could be slain inside it of it to a wide degree, it could be delivered very painful losses - and this is what counts: killing Hamas members by as high scores as possible. And the war should be carried on until Hamas is either dead or begs for surrender on its knees. Inside Gaza, this could be acchieved, since they have no unlimited ressources and no unlimited space to manouver and ressupply. So, this war indeed is a good chance to deliver Hamas a crippling blow and reduce it's stockpiles in weapons, ammo, and active personnell deciselvly. If by that the daily rocket terror that is haunting Israel day by day since eight years could be interrupted for some years to come and many Hamas terrorists could be killed, it was worth it. Election interests of Israeli political rivals should not be allowed to interfere with this. After Hamas has been seriously crippled, it also is imporant to get the Egyptians engaged in seriously sealing off the borders to Gaza and controlling them against weapons smuggling. A weak Hamas may help in getting them into the boat. so far they are hesitent, because common advise is to not getting engaged with Palestinian affairs: it's always getting a pain in the ###. Mikhayl probably will not like such a determined stand like I advocate. But thankfully his influence on the situation is extremely limited. We could all agree on this minimum (at least I assume): the earlier it is guaranteed that the daily rocket terror of Hamas could not be continued, the earlier aid and relief, food and medication, fuel and civilian goods could be brought into Gaza again. just a declaration of Hamas is not good enough for such a guarantee - their goal was and still is to kill Israelis and to destroy Israel - that limits the objects for negotiations considerably, one should think.

[August]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

As far as I'm concerned Israel and Hamas are both a stain on the surface of the Earth (though I keep in mind that Hamas is only one of many reactions to Israel), and I will be happy when they both get cleaned off.

Calling over 7 million people a "stain on the surface of the Earth" is a bit extreme don't you think?

Is that your final solution?

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Though yes I wouldn't move an eyelid if all the settler nutjobs disappeared overnight.

Well, either one accepts evolution or one does not.
The ultimate decline of evolution is the reverse to previous state.
And what would the ultimate previous state be?

All people would have to go back to where they came from, and not only individuals but also as nations.

Just try to imagine that: all white people out of America, Australia and Africa. All black people back to Africa. All Arabs back to the peninsula. Russians out of Asian Russia. And that's just the big picture. Then nationalities must be divided. Maybe DNA research can set our origins.

Seriously: let's all go to the sea and drown ourselves. We arose from the sea as small amoebas. That's the ultimate goal for reverse history and besides it suits naval simmers well, now doesn't it?

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Frame57

Wow! That is a switch. I must address my stereotype of Polish women. The ones I have seen all looked like my Grand Mother wearing a Babushka

Hey, their hot when their young, they just don't age gracefuly. So enjoy the eye candy.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

As far as I'm concerned Israel and Hamas are both a stain on the surface of the Earth (though I keep in mind that Hamas is only one of many reactions to Israel), and I will be happy when they both get cleaned off.

That is the difference between you and me: I see the difference between victim and perpetrator, you declare the victim to be as evil as the perpetrator, and reject Israel's right to exist. I would maybe argue in the same direction if the founding of Israel would be just two or three years ago in the past, and as a matter of fact I have repeatedly done that in past threads, but it is over two generations now - and this is what changes it all. It already has existed all too long now as that you could reverse history without committing again big injustice against innocent people not responsible for Israel's existence and the way it was brought into life. That's why I accept Israel's right to exist as a state - not doing so would kick another millions of people who had been born after 1947 into homelessness. If that is being called wrong for 1947, it cannot be any less wrong today, so why repeat the same mistake.

You may call that wrong or evil or whatever - but all history has been formed like this - including the forming-up of today's French and German states over the past 1000 years. Both today's nations are founded on an ocean of blood and suffering. After some time, chnages and what is new - become normality and the new norm the world now is focussing on. Demands for Israel'S dismantling are as much wanted as calls for a Great Serbia or a return of the Roman Empire. In the end, the territory of today'S Israel has been fought over and has seen bloodshed for millenias, they already had wars for it before the Romans came - and installed an enforced relative state of ceize-fire. The Palestinian's claim for it historically makes not more and not less sense than that of Israel today.

I also insist on seeing the difference in intentionally killing civilians of the other side and hiding amongst one's own civilians in order to provoke their death for scoring points in the propaganda war, and aiming at militants and trying to avoid civilian killings, but needing to accept them if the target does not keep separate from them. Maybe for you both intentions are the same. But that speaks not against Israel, but against you.

That hundreds of thousands of Israelis are expected to live under daily fear, living in a constant state of alarm 24/7, 12 months a year - we do not hear the UN, and France complaining about, just naive daydreamings. After all nobody gives a damn for Israelis suffering as long as they remain silent and keep their lips closed - as they are expected so that the West can carry on with his appeasement of Islam, last but not least at home. Killed Jews yelling in agony just disturb the global selfdeception of peace and multicultural tolerance.

However, the dispute between Israel and Palestinians is mostly a demographic one anyway, despite their miserable living conditions, Palestinians are breeding like rabbits, since they see this as their primary weapon to mount pressure on Israel. This is not only cynical (but typical for Islamic thinking since Muhammad himself, who also called for women to create many children so that there are more Muslim warriors), but possibly the factor that will eventually drop Israel into a state of civil war and rip it apart from within in some decades. I'm sure you are looking forward to it.

Btw a lot of French associations united to "fill a lawsuit" (?) against Israel to the International Criminal Court, it should be done Wednesday.

Have they also filed a lawsuit about Hamas firing missiles into civilian places in an attempt to target and kill civilians? No? I see. Commiting murder and terror is okay. Trying to fight off terrorists in self-defence who are striking like this - is unforgivable. Always be balanced, always see both sides. If you accuse the perpetrator, you also have to accuse the victim to show that you are not biased.

[Tchocky]

With reference to using civilians as cover, remember that it wasn't so long ago that the Israeli Army appealed a ban on their use of Palestinianhuman shields.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

[Skybird]

The Palestinians started this round (again), and provoked for years. A simple but true fact you comfortably prefer to ignore. Israel has learned its lesson from Lebanon 2006, and does not allow Hamas to become as strong as Hesbollah has been - that's why they are so unforgiving today: to prevent Hamas becoming like that. When the Israelis ended occupation and left, the new "freedom" was used to immediately start terror strikes from these once occupied grounds again, and on a daily basis. When terrorists come under pressure, they start talking of a seize-fire, to rearm. when they feel strong enough again, they start launching missiles into civilian crowds and areas again. Israel at lkeast gives three short hours of relief per day, knowing that this also helps Hamas. Hamas during these three hours continues striking, hoping to provoke retaliation that would cost Israel in the propaganda war. - - - Palestinians have, since years, the choice not to waste their small money for weapons and supporting extremism and buying ammo and explosives, but to invest in infrastructure, schools, agriculture - but they choose to channel a huge ammount of their already small money into terrorism. You do not care for that, too. I must note that in my book: terrorism against "zionism" is allowed, undiscriminatory murder is acceptable if committed in the name of anti-zionism. Honstely said, until today I do not even know precisely how to define zionism (and I met Israelis in Egypt who couldn't either), not to mention: supporting it. - - - If Palestinians started this all and provoked and terrorised, and lives really have to be lost, then I prefer Palestinian lives being taken for they are the ones respoinsible for this latest conflict, not that of the targetted Israeli population. Again, Mikhayl: you comfortably chose not to see the difference between victim and perpetrator, declare the citim guilty as hell, and relabel self-defence as a war of aggression becasue the victim'S defence is effective and stronger than the attacker'S aggression. You are most confused - and very ideologically biased. But hey, being anti-Israel is en vogue today (as if it ever has been different). seen that way you are a major representation of a general European attitude anyway. And France as a political - has a long history of being pro-Arabic and anti-Israel anyway. Probably a bad conscience for it'S colonial past it tries to overcompensate for - who knows...

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The Palestinians started this round (again), and provoked for years. A simple but true fact you comfortably prefer to ignore. Israel has learned its lesson from Lebanon 2006, and does not allow Hamas to become as strong as Hesbollah has been - that's why they are so unforgiving today: to prevent Hamas becoming like that. When the Israelis ended occupation and left, the new "freedom" was used to immediately start terror strikes from these once occupied grounds again, and on a daily basis.

Um, Hamas stopped rocket fire during the truce, which was broken by an Israeli strike on November 4th against Hamas.

Islamic Jihad continued low-scale rocket fire, and there were several unattributed rockets. But ths war in Gaza is specifically against Hamas, who had ceased rocket fire until attacked by Israel.

When terrorists come under pressure, they start talking of a seize-fire, to rearm. when they feel strong enough again, they start launching missiles into civilian crowds and areas again. Israel at lkeast gives three short hours of relief per day, knowing that this also helps Hamas.

From wikipedia - As of 12 January 2009, 13 Israelis (including 3 civilians) and 905 Palestinians (including 333 women and children) are estimated to have been killed in the conflict.

[Skybird]

If no palestinian rockets wpould constantly fly since 8 years, on a daily basis, there would be no 900+ Palestinians dead today. But they let them fly, and so see their situation worstening.

And I cannot say it is undeserved. If you have to live under constant fear to be struck by a missle, day by day, anytime around the clock, for years, then you become ill, and your life becomes miserable. It is the most natural thing in the world that sooner or later you wish to strike back and commit the needed ammount of destruction to the side doing this to you, that is needed to make it stop terrorising you all day long. hus it is better to see 900 palestinains dead, than 900 Israelis. I will not complain to fate that the Palestinian missiles did not do more harm. and if the palestinians still have no better missiles - I wonder why they are provoking so much for a fight until they got what they called for, for years. That is not clever, to put it mildly. What else can the intention be to force Israel to kill Palestinians in order to raise global opinion against Israel and score a strategic PR victory by sacrificing your own ethnic comrades? It remindsof Russian officer in world war two around stalingrad, who forced their troops with weapons to strm uselessly into German MG fire and get killed and shot ever russian not storming forward anymore. It was already disgusting with these russian soldiers 8although in the end the battle got won, hat horrific costs). It is even more disgusting if it is no soldiers of your side you sacrifice, but your own people's mothers, old, and children.

Of course, Israel gets blamed for it.The cynical Hamas tactic works very well with caring, sensible Westerners. THAT'S WHY THEY RUN THIS TACTIC, AND NO OTHER.

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Carotio, destroying a people and a culture to install a religious apartheid state is a regression if anything, certainly not an evolution.
And who's to say all the people would have to go back ? Arabs don't hate Jews, they hate Israel. Though your comparison doesn't hold, the people who migrated to Israel are hardly a "natural" migration like the others you cite.

I have little doubt that in the future History will be very harsh with Israel.

The "two state" solution is chimera and will never happen, how could you possibly have a state of Palestine cut in two by Israel ? Imagine if you had to submit to German checkpoints everytime you want to go see your family in another part of Denmark.

There will be either a single state where one people=one vote

So the arab conquest of the holy land was a natural migration? Later on the crusades - were they natural? When Israel was created, Jews were allready living in the area. Most Jews world wide just wanted to go back to where their ancestors lived and live in the newly created declared Jewish state.
When the slaves of USA was liberated after the civil war in 1865, may of them wished to return to Africa. And a new country was set up for them, Liberia. It felt natural for them at the time.
The palestinians, well, they are in fact just remains of arab conquest settlers. And now they have lived for hundred of years in the area, so yes of course it feels natural for them to live there.
You cannot just sit and declare one side natural and then the other side unnatural. It doesn't work.

I disagree, I doubt history will be harsh against Israel. But noone of any of us can tell, now can we. The average age is about 75 years, so in average we may have 30-50 years back to see what happens. Since we have had this situation for about a lifetime now, I have little doubt that in 50 years we'll still have status quo.

Cut in two by history, well, go ask the Russian in the Kaliningrad area, what they think. They're cut of from mother Russia as well, and they live with it, because of peaceful agreements.

If the single state should arise, then most likely, it will be Israelean, with Palestinians permitted to live on Israelean soil. USA would never allow the opposite.
But about current situation, then there's also the chance that Gaza cease to exist as Arab territory. The Gaza people would then have the choice of being Israelean citizen (unlikely) or move to the West Bank (being Fatah area probably also unlikely).