Russia cuts gas to Europe

01-07-09, 04:25 AM

Ppl going to blame the Ukraine have to keep something in mind. First of all, the Urkaine, even if it wanted to, can't pay what the russians are demanding. The country is in such a poor state, made even worse by the financial crisis, that it has huge problems coming up with any money at all. The heavy industries in the country, it's only source of income, has declined steadily over the last couple years. The state is near bankruptcy.

Russia on the other hands demands more money from the Ukraine then it asks from even Europe. Russia pushes the Ukraine into a position where it hardly has a choice but to go onto the offensive, which makes Russia look like the good boy. Russia managed to pull this off in Georgia already, where it constantly provoked this country over years until it got agressive. It's a perfect policy for Russia as it strenghens it's position against NATO and succesfully prevents further western influence in these regions on the back of common ppl in these regions.

Unluckily Europe has gone soft and rather allies with Russia to secure it's energy then standing up to principles and launching a major support program for the Ukraine, thus giving the message that imperialistic politics of old are still ok and that russia has some kind of birth given right to have a sphere of influence just because it once had and powergames ontop of common ppl in other countries are nice and dandy.

I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

XabbaRus · 01-07-09, 06:04 AM

Urm not true, Russia is demanding from Ukraine the market rate charged to other european customers. On top of that there are fines from late payment.

That the Ukraine can't pay isn't Russia's fault.

No one made it easy for Russia to pay off her foreign soviet debt but they paid it off, fortunately due to high energy prices.

Seriously would anyone have any sympathy for me if say my energy company raised the prices but I couldn't pay it? The energy companies would come after me for the money and wouldn't give a damn. This is the same on a larger scale.

I believe it is Yuschenko making it political. He will do anything to make Russia look bad.

Skybird · 01-07-09, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Ppl going to blame the Ukraine have to keep something in mind. First of all, the Urkaine, even if it wanted to, can't pay what the russians are demanding. The country is in such a poor state, made even worse by the financial crisis, that it has huge problems coming up with any money at all. The heavy industries in the country, it's only source of income, has declined steadily over the last couple years. The state is near bankruptcy.

That is not the Russians to blame for, but their own corrupt politics and inner divisionsThe Ukraine still is object to world markewt prices for all things it buys and sells. And the financial crisis - effects everybody, not just the Ukraine. It also effects Russia, so why should they waste their ressources headlessly? They have nopthing to waste. And is somebody selling steel to Germany cheaper than before, just because German car makers face a loss in sales of one quarter? Hardly. If the Ukraine lacks income to pay for the ressources it needs, it needs to ask for help at the ICF or the WB, and needs to accept to submit to the obligations and rules that come with that step. I do not like both institutions, but for the time being, this is the correct procedure. You do not simply demand for yourself not needing to pay anymore, and steal what you need from others.

Quote:

Russia on the other hands demands more money from the Ukraine then it asks from even Europe.

Not really. The Ukraine since years pays less than half of the regular market prices for their gas from Russia, the european nations had to pay much more. That in the times of conflict and negotiations (or lack of these), and after the loss of trust by the Russians in their Ukrainean partners they now step up there demands to compensate the risks, is understandable, and it also is to teach them a lesson about their ongoing provocations (I just remind of the Ukrainean high profile offense during the Georgian war, to lecture Russian Black Sea Fleet about asking Ukraine for permission for future military operations). If you live close to russia, are economically weak and dependant, and have many russians living in your country - you simply do not bully around at every opportunity like the Ukraine does. It is stupid to trigger unneeded conflicts, just in an attempt to blöackmail the West to give you membership. It is the same kind of irresponsible and almost criminal behaviour we have seen by Saakashvili. Act like an irresponsible moron, create facts and hope the West swallows it when you declare yourself the victim nevertheless.

Quote:

Russia pushes the Ukraine into a position where it hardly has a choice but to go onto the offensive, which makes Russia look like the good boy. Russia managed to pull this off in Georgia already, where it constantly provoked this country over years until it got agressive. It's a perfect policy for Russia as it strenghens it's position against NATO and succesfully prevents further western influence in these regions on the back of common ppl in these regions.

that is quite the usual and heavily onesided, distroted way to see the Georgian conflict. Georgia'S brutal opression both regarding minorities and democratic movements, it'S try to blackmail the West by creating sfacts on the ground to givbe it membership in NATO, it'S intentional targetti8ng of civilians and members of minorities, it'S autocratic antidemocratic government making ridicule of wetsern understanding of "democracy" - all this you comfortably ignore. - As I see it: Georgia at least is as guilty as Russia. For Russia, the new provinces that became indepedant have turned into stings in it'S flank, showing to be run by Mafia-style corrupt clans just soaking up Russian money, so regarding that Russia has hardly gained anything. But it has successfully turned away the threat of more american influence spreading in the Kaucasus. As sphere of influence you complain about in the next paragraph when it is for the russians, but that you comfortably ignore whgen it is an infoluence connected to America and NATO. Double standards, this is called.

Quote:

Unluckily Europe has gone soft and rather allies with Russia to secure it's energy then standing up to principles and launching a major support program for the Ukraine, thus giving the message that imperialistic politics of old are still ok and that russia has some kind of birth given right to have a sphere of influence just because it once had and powergames ontop of common ppl in other countries are nice and dandy.

Quote:

I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

I agree on the energy thing, it should have been started already after the oil crisis in the 70s.

However, my trust in EU competence to manage such things is fading faster than ever, and regarding it's diplomatic influence, nobody takes that more serious than the european chief diplomats and officials themselves. In the middle East, they are castrated and are laughed about, nobody takes them serious. Russia - to say the very least - talks to them on same eye level, or from higher position. Bush ignored Europe, and Obama will give europe not more than more polite behaviour and compliments that are cheap and can be given for free, while not adjusting fundamental principles of American policies (and that inlcudes: american interests first - well he is not the European but the American president, so I even cannot attack him on that), and demanding more european contributions to american-directed causes. the EU is really strong only in two things: eroding democracy in europe and replaing it with tyranny by establishing a relatvely small inn size but very strong bureaucratic mechanism that is bypassing national parliaments and democratic legitimation by the eurpean people and is independant from voting results in nations, and in negotiating egoist agricultural and economic deals and treaties with those that are weaker than the EU and often have to accept extremely disadvantageous conditions: the third world. And in the Far East, china is beyond the EU anyway, and the Pacific region is the playfield of China, Japan and America.

A megalomaniac mouse that roars and moralises its own people, while being turned away by other global players it has no influence over. It all reminds me of the ridiculous social and state models you can find in the novels by Philip K. Dick. much of the absurdities he described, I used to luagh about in the past. Today, I see much of that stuff being turned into absurd realities. Great.

Let's try to see it positive and turn it into a compliment for a visionary writer.

P.S. just for the record, I am no exiled Russian, nor do I have Russian ancestors. I do not transfigure neither the Soviet Union, nor Putinistan. I just refuse to subscribe to the western onesided blindness of opportunistic egocentrism, and I believe it is stupid to demand the other should behave stupid and violate his own vital interests - just for the sake of the wellbeing of yours.

01-07-09, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Ppl going to blame the Ukraine have to keep something in mind. First of all, the Urkaine, even if it wanted to, can't pay what the russians are demanding. The country is in such a poor state, made even worse by the financial crisis, that it has huge problems coming up with any money at all. The heavy industries in the country, it's only source of income, has declined steadily over the last couple years. The state is near bankruptcy.

That is not the Russians to blame for, but their own corrupt politics and inner divisionsThe Ukraine still is object to world markewt prices for all things it buys and sells. And the financial crisis - effects everybody, not just the Ukraine. It also effects Russia, so why should they waste their ressources headlessly? They have nopthing to waste. And is somebody selling steel to Germany cheaper than before, just because German car makers face a loss in sales of one quarter? Hardly. If the Ukraine lacks income to pay for the ressources it needs, it needs to ask for help at the ICF or the WB, and needs to accept to submit to the obligations and rules that come with that step. I do not like both institutions, but for the time being, this is the correct procedure. You do not simply demand for yourself not needing to pay anymore, and steal what you need from others.

And there I thought you were a humanist, Sky. Instead you reveal yourself to be a cynic of the worst kind. I do not need to tell you there are a couple differences between steel for car production and gas required to keep ppl from literally freezing to death and keep the few remains of industry this country has for making money up and running. If you view this problem as a purely capitalistic one that is fine with me and it's a legit stance, but when it comes to money versus ppl I usually chose ppl. The last time a western european country treated a neighbour this way was before WW2.

Quote:

Russia on the other hands demands more money from the Ukraine then it asks from even Europe.

Not really. The Ukraine since years pays less than half of the regular market prices for their gas from Russia, the european nations had to pay much more. That in the times of conflict and negotiations (or lack of these), and after the loss of trust by the Russians in their Ukrainean partners they now step up there demands to compensate the risks, is understandable, and it also is to teach them a lesson about their ongoing provocations (I just remind of the Ukrainean high profile offense during the Georgian war, to lecture Russian Black Sea Fleet about asking Ukraine for permission for future military operations). If you live close to russia, are economically weak and dependant, and have many russians living in your country - you simply do not bully around at every opportunity like the Ukraine does. It is stupid to trigger unneeded conflicts, just in an attempt to blöackmail the West to give you membership. It is the same kind of irresponsible and almost criminal behaviour we have seen by Saakashvili. Act like an irresponsible moron, create facts and hope the West swallows it when you declare yourself the victim nevertheless.

Yes, really. The fight you refer to about half the gas prices was 3 years ago. Since then the Ukraine has been asked for and paid world market prices.
And I completly and totally disagree to your notion that because you are a neighbour of Russia and have ppl with a russian passport living in your country means that you have to accept russian demands and political agendas. Ppl chose to live independantly from russia for a reason. What you suggest leads this drive for freedom ad absurdum. No country has the right to interfer within another countries internal politics, at least not when the goals of this interference are of imperialistic nature with the goal of restauration of former glory and sphere of influence. Either countries and their ppl have the same basic rights as we have, or they don't. There is no middle road if you want to keep up integrity. And about Saakashvili, he was an idiot, but he asked for help for a very long time beforehand and we simply chose to ignore him. It's not as if the georgian conflict just came out of the blue. Russia simply managed to wage a more succesfull propagandistic war.

Quote:

Russia pushes the Ukraine into a position where it hardly has a choice but to go onto the offensive, which makes Russia look like the good boy. Russia managed to pull this off in Georgia already, where it constantly provoked this country over years until it got agressive. It's a perfect policy for Russia as it strenghens it's position against NATO and succesfully prevents further western influence in these regions on the back of common ppl in these regions.

that is quite the usual and heavily onesided, distroted way to see the Georgian conflict. Georgia'S brutal opression both regarding minorities and democratic movements, it'S try to blackmail the West by creating sfacts on the ground to givbe it membership in NATO, it'S intentional targetti8ng of civilians and members of minorities, it'S autocratic antidemocratic government making ridicule of wetsern understanding of "democracy" - all this you comfortably ignore. - As I see it: Georgia at least is as guilty as Russia. For Russia, the new provinces that became indepedant have turned into stings in it'S flank, showing to be run by Mafia-style corrupt clans just soaking up Russian money, so regarding that Russia has hardly gained anything. But it has successfully turned away the threat of more american influence spreading in the Kaucasus. As sphere of influence you complain about in the next paragraph when it is for the russians, but that you comfortably ignore whgen it is an influence connected to America and NATO. Double standards, this is called.

Pff, don't put words into my mouth. I critized american involvement more then once, you are aware of that, so don't go this road of building your argument on stuff I neither said nor support. That said, I rather have american influence "anywhere" in the world then russian. And I have a certain feeling I am not alone in this regard. If you however consider Russia a legit contender when it comes to human rights, democracy and freedom, and base your argumentation on that instead of pure power politics, then you must be dillusional, despite the US's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, even Guantanomo.
And I'd really like sources of your notion that all new russian provinces are mafia style parasites the way you suggest. This generalisation is unfair and plain and simply wrong considering the very difficult positons these countries are in, far away from any possible support from the west, their "only" way of support if they want to keep the russians out of their borders, something I can completly relate to.

Quote:

Unluckily Europe has gone soft and rather allies with Russia to secure it's energy then standing up to principles and launching a major support program for the Ukraine, thus giving the message that imperialistic politics of old are still ok and that russia has some kind of birth given right to have a sphere of influence just because it once had and powergames ontop of common ppl in other countries are nice and dandy.
I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

I agree on the energy thing, it should have been started already after the oil crisis in the 70s.

However, my trust in EU competence to manage such things is fading faster than ever, and regarding it's diplomatic influence, nobody takes that more serious than the european chief diplomats and officials themselves. In the middle East, they are castrated and are laughed about, nobody takes them serious. Russia - to say the very least - talks to them on same eye level, or from higher position. Bush ignored Europe, and Obama will give europe not more than more polite behaviour and compliments that are cheap and can be given for free, while not adjusting fundamental principles of American policies (and that inlcudes: american interests first - well he is not the European but the American president, so I even cannot attack him on that), and demanding more european contributions to american-directed causes. the EU is really strong only in two things: eroding democracy in europe and replaing it with tyranny by establishing a relatvely small inn size but very strong bureaucratic mechanism that is bypassing national parliaments and democratic legitimation by the eurpean people and is independant from voting results in nations, and in negotiating egoist agricultural and economic deals and treaties with those that are weaker than the EU and often have to accept extremely disadvantageous conditions: the third world. And in the Far East, china is beyond the EU anyway, and the Pacific region is the playfield of China, Japan and America.

A megalomaniac mouse that roars and moralises its own people, while being turned away by other global players it has no influence over. It all reminds me of the ridiculous social and state models you can find in the novels by Philip K. Dick. much of the absurdities he described, I used to luagh about in the past. Today, I see much of that stuff being turned into absurd realities. Great.

Let's try to see it positive and turn it into a compliment for a visionary writer.

P.S. just for the record, I am no exiled Russian, nor do I have Russian ancestors. I do not transfigure neither the Soviet Union, nor Putinistan. I just refuse to subscribe to the western onesided blindness of opportunistic egocentrism, and I believe it is stupid to demand the other should behave stupid and violate his own vital interests - just for the sake of the wellbeing of yours.

Just read your very last paragraph. And indeed I was wondering if you suddenly got your money from the russian taxpayer considering how violently you got yourself onto the russian side. Though I share your sentiment about western ignorance you completly forget the fate of the ppl living within countries making those politics. I also do not consider western values outdated visions without a place in judgement of modern politics even in regions not living up to these values. And even if all you said was right, then it can't be in our interest to let the big thug subjugate the samller thugs to become a monster thug. Russian is way overrated. Their economy is the size of Portugal. They have nothing backing up their international endavours but old nukes, country size, natural ressources and most of all...lots of sabre rattling. Nothing of real substance making any claims to be a superpower with special rights in any way legit. Making Russia the big and natural contender to the US or even Europe is a joke. Even during the cold war Russias place in the world was more defined by fear and lies then anything substantial and it feeds from this reputation to this very day.

The discussion about the EU is a different topic alltogether.

Skybird · 01-07-09, 02:27 PM

Bewolf, I took note of your answer, and intentionally do not reply, for it would easily lead to this thread blowing up, and also I already have typed in another long reply here. I leave it to saying that you and me obviously do not talk about the same planet.

FIREWALL · 01-07-09, 02:31 PM

I think their all full of Gas. :p :rotfl:

01-07-09, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Bewolf, I took note of your answer, and intentionally do not reply, for it would easily lead to this thread blowing up, and also I already have typed in another long reply here. I leave it to saying that you and me obviously do not talk about the same planet.

Fine with me.

Deamon · 01-07-09, 02:48 PM

All this brings me on some good ideas for some steel beasts scenarios with leos. Since a longer while I was looking for a reason to attack the east again.

nikimcbee · 01-07-09, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deamon

All this brings me on some good ideas for some steel beasts scenarios with leos. Since a longer while I was looking for a reason to attack the east again.

Quote:

I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

Do you mean "lebensraum?"

I say: go for it! The US wouldn't get envolved, as we a pacifists now. Maybe the third time will be a charm.

Kapitan · 01-07-09, 02:56 PM

Xabbarus is right take a look at the index mundi website i think you will find ukrain GDP went up by more than 6% in 2008 which means her econamy is growing so she can afford it.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=up&v=66

There is an alternative however:

Russia wants to stay a power in the mediteranean and black seas perhapse prime minister putin and premier mevedev (spelling?) could shall we say over look payment for the gas in return for the ukraines to extend the 2017 dead line for sevastopol.

Personally i think it is just this that is forcing some of the bartering but i think we should be warey of Russia as several U.S and british analysts in the last 8 years have said and i quote norman friedman " Russia has the potential to grow back to what it once was or simply dissapear" and at the moment i think she is doing a good job of making a return.

baggygreen · 01-07-09, 04:17 PM

I j ust want to point out that I personally feel the Russians are simply taking advantage of the situation, as they probably should given the way they've been treated. Europe (more NATO) has been trying to push further eastwards, it's convenient for Russia to disrupt things a bit.

Ukraine are always whinging and moaning, not to mention antagonising. Not to say the russians dont do the same, but neither one is an innocent.

Catfish · 01-07-09, 04:56 PM

Hello,
my opinion is it is quite easy with Russia. They want the Ucrainian, and maybe some more nations back that formerly belonged to their cordon sanitaire.
As well Putin keeps on testing how far he can go with bis power games until someone plants a fist in his face. I would say the sooner someone does it the better. And since we are at that, please do not forget our previous german chancellor Schroeder, working for Gazprom now he can get two of those from me

.

Russia has stopped the deliveries through the Ukrayina altogether, and claims the Ucrainians would have stopped the flow to the EU - which is complete bullsh*t. They do not get any gas, with current temperatures of -30 degrees Celsius. Everyone knows Russia is blackmailing Ukrayina since they parted from the Soviet Union, and want to become part of the NATO.

This whole presentation in the russian press is a joke - just saw this "masterpiece" on the TV. The situation is played in front of running cameras like an ancient piece in a theatre:

Putin sits at a table, the Gazprom boss walks stiffly in and sits down (name is not necessary, Gazprom is no free enterprise, this "boss" is exchangable). Both men are trying hard to look honest and sober, with a solemn, grave expression on their faces (like imagine our politicians being asked for their salaries :rotfl: )

Now there's following dialogue:

Gazprom boss sitting down and facing Putin: "The Ucrainians did not pay the gas bills! I propose stopping all gas deliveries to Ukrayina!"

Putin not moving, staring at a wall: "You say Ukrayina did not pay, and there is still gas delivered to Ukrayina. We are pumping gas to our european friends (the word "friends" is pronounced even more grave), and Ukrayina has closed the taps. I say stop all deliveries to Ukrayina."

Gazprom boss standing up: "Yes. We will stop all gas deliveries to Ukrayina."

The Gazprom boss is seen leaving the room, and the camera zooms in on Putin's face, who is trying hard to produce an intelligent facial expression, or what he thinks that is.
Then there are some "experts" discussing this comedy :rotfl: :rotfl:
Only problem is the russian mafia would be even worse without Putin :hmm:

Sorry, but this TV show was simply too much for me.

Greetings,
Catfish

Kapitan · 01-08-09, 04:58 PM

This seems more like the berlin blockade after WW2 only trouble is we cant really air lift gas.

there is plenty of other international suppliers of gas why not change provider?

AntEater · 01-08-09, 05:15 PM

WTF?
Skybird, get yourself a blog!
I don't say "get a life" because the stuff you write is good, so you don't have to get a life

Writing such essays here is pearls cast before swine!
Not even I could bring myself to read all of it.
You can easily piss off Subman with 3 line posts, so why write three frackin pages???
:rotfl:

Re the gas "argument", I (expectedly) think the ukrainian government, namely the President Yushenko is using this to stir up **** in their own country, try to get financial support in the west and secure votes for his party and himself in the upcoming elections.
Russia, on the other hand, is not in the position to curry out favors, especially not to nations that pursue a hostile policy.
The EU is trying to diversify its gas sources to such utterly stable muster democracies as Iran or Algeria.
Actually this whole thing is one big argument for the nord stream pipeline, even though the poles will not like it.

XabbaRus · 01-08-09, 05:20 PM

Don't give me the victim thing.

In fact the only former Warsaw pact country I hear that from apart from the Baltic states which I can understand is from Poland. I never hear that stuff from teh Czechs, Slovakians etc.

01-07-09, 06:04 AM	#2
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Urm not true, Russia is demanding from Ukraine the market rate charged to other european customers. On top of that there are fines from late payment. That the Ukraine can't pay isn't Russia's fault. No one made it easy for Russia to pay off her foreign soviet debt but they paid it off, fortunately due to high energy prices. Seriously would anyone have any sympathy for me if say my energy company raised the prices but I couldn't pay it? The energy companies would come after me for the money and wouldn't give a damn. This is the same on a larger scale. I believe it is Yuschenko making it political. He will do anything to make Russia look bad. __________________

01-07-09, 02:27 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,718 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Bewolf, I took note of your answer, and intentionally do not reply, for it would easily lead to this thread blowing up, and also I already have typed in another long reply here. I leave it to saying that you and me obviously do not talk about the same planet. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-07-09, 02:31 PM	#6
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	I think their all full of Gas. :p :rotfl: __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

01-07-09, 02:56 PM	#10
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,132 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Xabbarus is right take a look at the index mundi website i think you will find ukrain GDP went up by more than 6% in 2008 which means her econamy is growing so she can afford it. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=up&v=66 There is an alternative however: Russia wants to stay a power in the mediteranean and black seas perhapse prime minister putin and premier mevedev (spelling?) could shall we say over look payment for the gas in return for the ukraines to extend the 2017 dead line for sevastopol. Personally i think it is just this that is forcing some of the bartering but i think we should be warey of Russia as several U.S and british analysts in the last 8 years have said and i quote norman friedman " Russia has the potential to grow back to what it once was or simply dissapear" and at the moment i think she is doing a good job of making a return. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

01-08-09, 04:58 PM	#13
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,132 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	This seems more like the berlin blockade after WW2 only trouble is we cant really air lift gas. there is plenty of other international suppliers of gas why not change provider? __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

01-07-09, 04:25 AM	#1
Bewolf Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Ppl going to blame the Ukraine have to keep something in mind. First of all, the Urkaine, even if it wanted to, can't pay what the russians are demanding. The country is in such a poor state, made even worse by the financial crisis, that it has huge problems coming up with any money at all. The heavy industries in the country, it's only source of income, has declined steadily over the last couple years. The state is near bankruptcy. Russia on the other hands demands more money from the Ukraine then it asks from even Europe. Russia pushes the Ukraine into a position where it hardly has a choice but to go onto the offensive, which makes Russia look like the good boy. Russia managed to pull this off in Georgia already, where it constantly provoked this country over years until it got agressive. It's a perfect policy for Russia as it strenghens it's position against NATO and succesfully prevents further western influence in these regions on the back of common ppl in these regions. Unluckily Europe has gone soft and rather allies with Russia to secure it's energy then standing up to principles and launching a major support program for the Ukraine, thus giving the message that imperialistic politics of old are still ok and that russia has some kind of birth given right to have a sphere of influence just because it once had and powergames ontop of common ppl in other countries are nice and dandy. I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

01-07-09, 02:48 PM	#8
Deamon Commodore Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 642 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	All this brings me on some good ideas for some steel beasts scenarios with leos. Since a longer while I was looking for a reason to attack the east again.

01-07-09, 04:17 PM	#11
baggygreen Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canberra, ACT, Down Under (really On Top) Posts: 1,880 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I j ust want to point out that I personally feel the Russians are simply taking advantage of the situation, as they probably should given the way they've been treated. Europe (more NATO) has been trying to push further eastwards, it's convenient for Russia to disrupt things a bit. Ukraine are always whinging and moaning, not to mention antagonising. Not to say the russians dont do the same, but neither one is an innocent.

01-07-09, 04:56 PM	#12
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,804 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello, my opinion is it is quite easy with Russia. They want the Ucrainian, and maybe some more nations back that formerly belonged to their cordon sanitaire. As well Putin keeps on testing how far he can go with bis power games until someone plants a fist in his face. I would say the sooner someone does it the better. And since we are at that, please do not forget our previous german chancellor Schroeder, working for Gazprom now he can get two of those from me . Russia has stopped the deliveries through the Ukrayina altogether, and claims the Ucrainians would have stopped the flow to the EU - which is complete bullsh*t. They do not get any gas, with current temperatures of -30 degrees Celsius. Everyone knows Russia is blackmailing Ukrayina since they parted from the Soviet Union, and want to become part of the NATO. This whole presentation in the russian press is a joke - just saw this "masterpiece" on the TV. The situation is played in front of running cameras like an ancient piece in a theatre: Putin sits at a table, the Gazprom boss walks stiffly in and sits down (name is not necessary, Gazprom is no free enterprise, this "boss" is exchangable). Both men are trying hard to look honest and sober, with a solemn, grave expression on their faces (like imagine our politicians being asked for their salaries :rotfl: ) Now there's following dialogue: Gazprom boss sitting down and facing Putin: "The Ucrainians did not pay the gas bills! I propose stopping all gas deliveries to Ukrayina!" Putin not moving, staring at a wall: "You say Ukrayina did not pay, and there is still gas delivered to Ukrayina. We are pumping gas to our european friends (the word "friends" is pronounced even more grave), and Ukrayina has closed the taps. I say stop all deliveries to Ukrayina." Gazprom boss standing up: "Yes. We will stop all gas deliveries to Ukrayina." The Gazprom boss is seen leaving the room, and the camera zooms in on Putin's face, who is trying hard to produce an intelligent facial expression, or what he thinks that is. Then there are some "experts" discussing this comedy :rotfl: :rotfl: Only problem is the russian mafia would be even worse without Putin :hmm: Sorry, but this TV show was simply too much for me. Greetings, Catfish

01-08-09, 05:15 PM	#14
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	WTF? Skybird, get yourself a blog! I don't say "get a life" because the stuff you write is good, so you don't have to get a life Writing such essays here is pearls cast before swine! Not even I could bring myself to read all of it. You can easily piss off Subman with 3 line posts, so why write three frackin pages??? :rotfl: Re the gas "argument", I (expectedly) think the ukrainian government, namely the President Yushenko is using this to stir up **** in their own country, try to get financial support in the west and secure votes for his party and himself in the upcoming elections. Russia, on the other hand, is not in the position to curry out favors, especially not to nations that pursue a hostile policy. The EU is trying to diversify its gas sources to such utterly stable muster democracies as Iran or Algeria. Actually this whole thing is one big argument for the nord stream pipeline, even though the poles will not like it. __________________

01-08-09, 05:20 PM	#15
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Don't give me the victim thing. In fact the only former Warsaw pact country I hear that from apart from the Baltic states which I can understand is from Poland. I never hear that stuff from teh Czechs, Slovakians etc. __________________