Russia cuts gas to Europe

[XabbaRus]

NO sympathy for the Ukraine...

Want to pay half then you have to give something back.

I can't tell my energy company to stick it when they increase prices, why can Ukraine?

Don't give me the big bad Russia thing. Ukraine knows exactly how to stir it up.

As for Poland being strategically minimised, I didn't know it was important anyway?

[Zachstar]

Maybe it is just me but this sounds so 80-90s.

Anyone else getting that feeling?

Ppl going to blame the Ukraine have to keep something in mind. First of all, the Urkaine, even if it wanted to, can't pay what the russians are demanding. The country is in such a poor state, made even worse by the financial crisis, that it has huge problems coming up with any money at all. The heavy industries in the country, it's only source of income, has declined steadily over the last couple years. The state is near bankruptcy.

Russia on the other hands demands more money from the Ukraine then it asks from even Europe. Russia pushes the Ukraine into a position where it hardly has a choice but to go onto the offensive, which makes Russia look like the good boy. Russia managed to pull this off in Georgia already, where it constantly provoked this country over years until it got agressive. It's a perfect policy for Russia as it strenghens it's position against NATO and succesfully prevents further western influence in these regions on the back of common ppl in these regions.

Unluckily Europe has gone soft and rather allies with Russia to secure it's energy then standing up to principles and launching a major support program for the Ukraine, thus giving the message that imperialistic politics of old are still ok and that russia has some kind of birth given right to have a sphere of influence just because it once had and powergames ontop of common ppl in other countries are nice and dandy.

I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

[XabbaRus]

Urm not true, Russia is demanding from Ukraine the market rate charged to other european customers. On top of that there are fines from late payment.

That the Ukraine can't pay isn't Russia's fault.

No one made it easy for Russia to pay off her foreign soviet debt but they paid it off, fortunately due to high energy prices.

Seriously would anyone have any sympathy for me if say my energy company raised the prices but I couldn't pay it? The energy companies would come after me for the money and wouldn't give a damn. This is the same on a larger scale.

I believe it is Yuschenko making it political. He will do anything to make Russia look bad.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Ppl going to blame the Ukraine have to keep something in mind. First of all, the Urkaine, even if it wanted to, can't pay what the russians are demanding. The country is in such a poor state, made even worse by the financial crisis, that it has huge problems coming up with any money at all. The heavy industries in the country, it's only source of income, has declined steadily over the last couple years. The state is near bankruptcy.

That is not the Russians to blame for, but their own corrupt politics and inner divisionsThe Ukraine still is object to world markewt prices for all things it buys and sells. And the financial crisis - effects everybody, not just the Ukraine. It also effects Russia, so why should they waste their ressources headlessly? They have nopthing to waste. And is somebody selling steel to Germany cheaper than before, just because German car makers face a loss in sales of one quarter? Hardly. If the Ukraine lacks income to pay for the ressources it needs, it needs to ask for help at the ICF or the WB, and needs to accept to submit to the obligations and rules that come with that step. I do not like both institutions, but for the time being, this is the correct procedure. You do not simply demand for yourself not needing to pay anymore, and steal what you need from others.

Russia on the other hands demands more money from the Ukraine then it asks from even Europe.

Not really. The Ukraine since years pays less than half of the regular market prices for their gas from Russia, the european nations had to pay much more. That in the times of conflict and negotiations (or lack of these), and after the loss of trust by the Russians in their Ukrainean partners they now step up there demands to compensate the risks, is understandable, and it also is to teach them a lesson about their ongoing provocations (I just remind of the Ukrainean high profile offense during the Georgian war, to lecture Russian Black Sea Fleet about asking Ukraine for permission for future military operations). If you live close to russia, are economically weak and dependant, and have many russians living in your country - you simply do not bully around at every opportunity like the Ukraine does. It is stupid to trigger unneeded conflicts, just in an attempt to blöackmail the West to give you membership. It is the same kind of irresponsible and almost criminal behaviour we have seen by Saakashvili. Act like an irresponsible moron, create facts and hope the West swallows it when you declare yourself the victim nevertheless.

Russia pushes the Ukraine into a position where it hardly has a choice but to go onto the offensive, which makes Russia look like the good boy. Russia managed to pull this off in Georgia already, where it constantly provoked this country over years until it got agressive. It's a perfect policy for Russia as it strenghens it's position against NATO and succesfully prevents further western influence in these regions on the back of common ppl in these regions.

that is quite the usual and heavily onesided, distroted way to see the Georgian conflict. Georgia'S brutal opression both regarding minorities and democratic movements, it'S try to blackmail the West by creating sfacts on the ground to givbe it membership in NATO, it'S intentional targetti8ng of civilians and members of minorities, it'S autocratic antidemocratic government making ridicule of wetsern understanding of "democracy" - all this you comfortably ignore. - As I see it: Georgia at least is as guilty as Russia. For Russia, the new provinces that became indepedant have turned into stings in it'S flank, showing to be run by Mafia-style corrupt clans just soaking up Russian money, so regarding that Russia has hardly gained anything. But it has successfully turned away the threat of more american influence spreading in the Kaucasus. As sphere of influence you complain about in the next paragraph when it is for the russians, but that you comfortably ignore whgen it is an infoluence connected to America and NATO. Double standards, this is called.

Unluckily Europe has gone soft and rather allies with Russia to secure it's energy then standing up to principles and launching a major support program for the Ukraine, thus giving the message that imperialistic politics of old are still ok and that russia has some kind of birth given right to have a sphere of influence just because it once had and powergames ontop of common ppl in other countries are nice and dandy.

I personally can only hope the EU learns something and as Neil already said, gets it's alternative energy programs on line to prevent future clashes with Russia and gain back some space for diplomatic movement.

I agree on the energy thing, it should have been started already after the oil crisis in the 70s.

However, my trust in EU competence to manage such things is fading faster than ever, and regarding it's diplomatic influence, nobody takes that more serious than the european chief diplomats and officials themselves. In the middle East, they are castrated and are laughed about, nobody takes them serious. Russia - to say the very least - talks to them on same eye level, or from higher position. Bush ignored Europe, and Obama will give europe not more than more polite behaviour and compliments that are cheap and can be given for free, while not adjusting fundamental principles of American policies (and that inlcudes: american interests first - well he is not the European but the American president, so I even cannot attack him on that), and demanding more european contributions to american-directed causes. the EU is really strong only in two things: eroding democracy in europe and replaing it with tyranny by establishing a relatvely small inn size but very strong bureaucratic mechanism that is bypassing national parliaments and democratic legitimation by the eurpean people and is independant from voting results in nations, and in negotiating egoist agricultural and economic deals and treaties with those that are weaker than the EU and often have to accept extremely disadvantageous conditions: the third world. And in the Far East, china is beyond the EU anyway, and the Pacific region is the playfield of China, Japan and America.

A megalomaniac mouse that roars and moralises its own people, while being turned away by other global players it has no influence over. It all reminds me of the ridiculous social and state models you can find in the novels by Philip K. Dick. much of the absurdities he described, I used to luagh about in the past. Today, I see much of that stuff being turned into absurd realities. Great.

Let's try to see it positive and turn it into a compliment for a visionary writer.

P.S. just for the record, I am no exiled Russian, nor do I have Russian ancestors. I do not transfigure neither the Soviet Union, nor Putinistan. I just refuse to subscribe to the western onesided blindness of opportunistic egocentrism, and I believe it is stupid to demand the other should behave stupid and violate his own vital interests - just for the sake of the wellbeing of yours.

Originally Posted by Skybird

That is not the Russians to blame for, but their own corrupt politics and inner divisionsThe Ukraine still is object to world markewt prices for all things it buys and sells. And the financial crisis - effects everybody, not just the Ukraine. It also effects Russia, so why should they waste their ressources headlessly? They have nopthing to waste. And is somebody selling steel to Germany cheaper than before, just because German car makers face a loss in sales of one quarter? Hardly. If the Ukraine lacks income to pay for the ressources it needs, it needs to ask for help at the ICF or the WB, and needs to accept to submit to the obligations and rules that come with that step. I do not like both institutions, but for the time being, this is the correct procedure. You do not simply demand for yourself not needing to pay anymore, and steal what you need from others.

And there I thought you were a humanist, Sky. Instead you reveal yourself to be a cynic of the worst kind. I do not need to tell you there are a couple differences between steel for car production and gas required to keep ppl from literally freezing to death and keep the few remains of industry this country has for making money up and running. If you view this problem as a purely capitalistic one that is fine with me and it's a legit stance, but when it comes to money versus ppl I usually chose ppl. The last time a western european country treated a neighbour this way was before WW2.

Not really. The Ukraine since years pays less than half of the regular market prices for their gas from Russia, the european nations had to pay much more. That in the times of conflict and negotiations (or lack of these), and after the loss of trust by the Russians in their Ukrainean partners they now step up there demands to compensate the risks, is understandable, and it also is to teach them a lesson about their ongoing provocations (I just remind of the Ukrainean high profile offense during the Georgian war, to lecture Russian Black Sea Fleet about asking Ukraine for permission for future military operations). If you live close to russia, are economically weak and dependant, and have many russians living in your country - you simply do not bully around at every opportunity like the Ukraine does. It is stupid to trigger unneeded conflicts, just in an attempt to blöackmail the West to give you membership. It is the same kind of irresponsible and almost criminal behaviour we have seen by Saakashvili. Act like an irresponsible moron, create facts and hope the West swallows it when you declare yourself the victim nevertheless.

Yes, really. The fight you refer to about half the gas prices was 3 years ago. Since then the Ukraine has been asked for and paid world market prices.
And I completly and totally disagree to your notion that because you are a neighbour of Russia and have ppl with a russian passport living in your country means that you have to accept russian demands and political agendas. Ppl chose to live independantly from russia for a reason. What you suggest leads this drive for freedom ad absurdum. No country has the right to interfer within another countries internal politics, at least not when the goals of this interference are of imperialistic nature with the goal of restauration of former glory and sphere of influence. Either countries and their ppl have the same basic rights as we have, or they don't. There is no middle road if you want to keep up integrity. And about Saakashvili, he was an idiot, but he asked for help for a very long time beforehand and we simply chose to ignore him. It's not as if the georgian conflict just came out of the blue. Russia simply managed to wage a more succesfull propagandistic war.

that is quite the usual and heavily onesided, distroted way to see the Georgian conflict. Georgia'S brutal opression both regarding minorities and democratic movements, it'S try to blackmail the West by creating sfacts on the ground to givbe it membership in NATO, it'S intentional targetti8ng of civilians and members of minorities, it'S autocratic antidemocratic government making ridicule of wetsern understanding of "democracy" - all this you comfortably ignore. - As I see it: Georgia at least is as guilty as Russia. For Russia, the new provinces that became indepedant have turned into stings in it'S flank, showing to be run by Mafia-style corrupt clans just soaking up Russian money, so regarding that Russia has hardly gained anything. But it has successfully turned away the threat of more american influence spreading in the Kaucasus. As sphere of influence you complain about in the next paragraph when it is for the russians, but that you comfortably ignore whgen it is an influence connected to America and NATO. Double standards, this is called.

Pff, don't put words into my mouth. I critized american involvement more then once, you are aware of that, so don't go this road of building your argument on stuff I neither said nor support. That said, I rather have american influence "anywhere" in the world then russian. And I have a certain feeling I am not alone in this regard. If you however consider Russia a legit contender when it comes to human rights, democracy and freedom, and base your argumentation on that instead of pure power politics, then you must be dillusional, despite the US's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, even Guantanomo.
And I'd really like sources of your notion that all new russian provinces are mafia style parasites the way you suggest. This generalisation is unfair and plain and simply wrong considering the very difficult positons these countries are in, far away from any possible support from the west, their "only" way of support if they want to keep the russians out of their borders, something I can completly relate to.

I agree on the energy thing, it should have been started already after the oil crisis in the 70s.

However, my trust in EU competence to manage such things is fading faster than ever, and regarding it's diplomatic influence, nobody takes that more serious than the european chief diplomats and officials themselves. In the middle East, they are castrated and are laughed about, nobody takes them serious. Russia - to say the very least - talks to them on same eye level, or from higher position. Bush ignored Europe, and Obama will give europe not more than more polite behaviour and compliments that are cheap and can be given for free, while not adjusting fundamental principles of American policies (and that inlcudes: american interests first - well he is not the European but the American president, so I even cannot attack him on that), and demanding more european contributions to american-directed causes. the EU is really strong only in two things: eroding democracy in europe and replaing it with tyranny by establishing a relatvely small inn size but very strong bureaucratic mechanism that is bypassing national parliaments and democratic legitimation by the eurpean people and is independant from voting results in nations, and in negotiating egoist agricultural and economic deals and treaties with those that are weaker than the EU and often have to accept extremely disadvantageous conditions: the third world. And in the Far East, china is beyond the EU anyway, and the Pacific region is the playfield of China, Japan and America.

A megalomaniac mouse that roars and moralises its own people, while being turned away by other global players it has no influence over. It all reminds me of the ridiculous social and state models you can find in the novels by Philip K. Dick. much of the absurdities he described, I used to luagh about in the past. Today, I see much of that stuff being turned into absurd realities. Great.

Let's try to see it positive and turn it into a compliment for a visionary writer.

P.S. just for the record, I am no exiled Russian, nor do I have Russian ancestors. I do not transfigure neither the Soviet Union, nor Putinistan. I just refuse to subscribe to the western onesided blindness of opportunistic egocentrism, and I believe it is stupid to demand the other should behave stupid and violate his own vital interests - just for the sake of the wellbeing of yours.

Just read your very last paragraph. And indeed I was wondering if you suddenly got your money from the russian taxpayer considering how violently you got yourself onto the russian side. Though I share your sentiment about western ignorance you completly forget the fate of the ppl living within countries making those politics. I also do not consider western values outdated visions without a place in judgement of modern politics even in regions not living up to these values. And even if all you said was right, then it can't be in our interest to let the big thug subjugate the samller thugs to become a monster thug. Russian is way overrated. Their economy is the size of Portugal. They have nothing backing up their international endavours but old nukes, country size, natural ressources and most of all...lots of sabre rattling. Nothing of real substance making any claims to be a superpower with special rights in any way legit. Making Russia the big and natural contender to the US or even Europe is a joke. Even during the cold war Russias place in the world was more defined by fear and lies then anything substantial and it feeds from this reputation to this very day.

The discussion about the EU is a different topic alltogether.

[Skybird]

Bewolf, I took note of your answer, and intentionally do not reply, for it would easily lead to this thread blowing up, and also I already have typed in another long reply here. I leave it to saying that you and me obviously do not talk about the same planet.

[FIREWALL]

I think their all full of Gas. :p :rotfl:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Bewolf, I took note of your answer, and intentionally do not reply, for it would easily lead to this thread blowing up, and also I already have typed in another long reply here. I leave it to saying that you and me obviously do not talk about the same planet.

Fine with me.

[Kapitan]

This seems more like the berlin blockade after WW2 only trouble is we cant really air lift gas.

there is plenty of other international suppliers of gas why not change provider?

[XabbaRus]

Since three years ago the Ukraine has not paid world market prices.

Market price is about $400 per cubic metre. Ukraine wants for $200 and has had below this for the past year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7809131.stm

[baggygreen]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Since three years ago the Ukraine has not paid world market prices.

Market price is about $400 per cubic metre. Ukraine wants for $200 and has had below this for the past year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7809131.stm

I'm just throwing it out there, is it possible the Ukrainians feel they deserve it for less as a tax for the pipes crossing their territory?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

As for Poland being strategically minimised, I didn't know it was important anyway?

Being from Russia, you may want to be more careful with such comments, Xabba. they have all historic reason to be worried about their two giant neighbours, Russia and germany. however, their probolem today is they allow their history to dominate their present, turning it into a constant state of paranoia and - in an effort to overcompensate for that - tough nationalism on their own side, while demonising both Germany and Russia, and the whole Eu in general, on the other side. Also, claiming a state of being the eternal victim, can be turned opportunistically into gold during political negotiations, so part of it all also is just this: posture, calculated tactic, and playacting: you see that tactic also being used by Palestinians, Islam, and sometimes Israel and Jewish organisations as well, even russia, the Ukraine and Georgia .

If Poland has one problem in the present, it is a psychopathological one. Unfortunately, that you can explain it does not mean it takes away the many problems they cause inside the EU, and the many "Extra-Würstchen" they demand and often get. what is behind it is not really a strong ego, but a deep-rooting inferiority complex, caused by historic trauma.

Hope they get over it sooner or later. That would make Poland a much better neighbour for Germany, and an easier and more relaxed EU member (right now the political Poland seems to cramp at every opportunity, doesn't it). - Not that on private, inter-personal levels many relations between Poles and Germans already give evidence that people can act very well and friendly with each other already. My personal quarrel is more with policies and politicians in Poland, not with the people. The few Poles I knew, were okay, and we got along very well.

[Respenus]

One again Skybird, you pleasantly surprise me with your insight and the ability to write long coherent sentences about your understanding of things around you. For that I salute you.

Yet, I cannot seem to fathom why you consider the EU be a killer of democracy (let's leave Lisbone and Ganley)? Considering that right now, the European Parliament is fighting for even more power which would make a more stable and democratic EU, for what is more democratic than direct elections? A consider you a very bright person, a level of intellect I hope to one day achieve, yet am I blinded by everything I have read on the subject of democracy in the EU or is it you who doesn't want to let go of the old idea that it is the national state that must always be in control, known as Gaullisme.

Now we come to what I wanted to ask you. Do you honestly and in your insightful opinion think that EU diplomacy would be stronger if every state acted on it's own? Here we come to the question of the loosing of power of European states in general as far as diplomacy (and many, many other things) goes. So, what is better? Leave everyone be on his own, let once more bitter rivalries come forth, if even on the international level, or at least try and stand together and try to hold the breach, even if it is for the last time?

In all honesty, I am for a changed Europe. Yet a new Europe. Not the Europe of national states nor of the supranational/intergovernmental system that is now the EU. Knowing you used to be in psychology, can you answer me this. If every single European has food, housing, clothes and basic services which open up the horizon for him, is the question of someone in Brussels pulling some strings really that important? It's the same on the national level and lobbying, the only difference is, we the public don't have access to certain information on the EU, that would make us feel safer about the EU. I agree it's a difficult subject, yet you could claim that before 1992 it was even less democratic. Once again, is the elected EU Parliament any less democratic than the national one?

One final question, do you believe that European states would be better of with the system that the UK publicised in the form of EFTA?
_____
As far as the Russia/Ukraine dispute goes. Once more we can see flexing of muscles from both sides and most of you posters have already said most what has to be set. An interesting article on the BBC said that there are many sides to this "economic" dispute. Russia wants it's sphere of influence, yes? Yet she has Ukraine, a former USSR state wanting to join the EU and NATO. Right now, it's only strategic importance is as a natural gas hub. What happens if you remove this importance with new pipelines? If we are to believe Skybird on the subject on EU diplomacy (and here I'm afraid he is right), the EU will just look the other way as Russia slowly brings Ukraine back under it's control, one way or another.

[XabbaRus]

Sky, I'm not from Russia, I'm a Brit....

I was being sarcastic. I fear that if the Ukraine entered the EU she would bring the same mindset as Poland.

Whenever I hear Kazynscki moaning it seems more of a victim mentality than anything else and one thing I hate more than anything is when people have to play the victim all the time to get anything.