Demise of British tank industry foretold admitted

UnderseaLcpl · 12-30-08, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

The UK is the last country over there with any decent know how on weapon technology.

What? You are aware that our own M1A2 uses a Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore, right. Our primary infantry small arms are manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, and our most advanced military radios are built around components designed by Siemens. And that's to say nothing of the latest generation of Leopard tanks, which might be the only tank in the World that could give the Abrams a run for its' money.

Besides, it isn't as if the U.K. has a history of superior tank design. Besides making the first tanks, their only other real success was the fitting of the 17-pdr gun to the Sherman, which was a crappy tank in its' own right. The Chieftain, Challenger and Conqueror tanks certainly weren't paragons of good tank design, either.

What is this "decent" know how that only the British have, and what does it have to do with their tanks?

Letum · 12-31-08, 12:03 AM

I agree. It is hard to think of a really origional and innovative British weapon that proved
it's self in combat after 1900.

joegrundman · 12-31-08, 12:24 AM

the hedgehog

Lurchi · 12-31-08, 01:39 AM

The Spitfire & Mosquito with Merlin engine?
How about the 15inch Mk. I gun and the Spearfish torpedo also Trafalgar submarines?

I think the Brits (or Europe) just don't boast so much - that doesn't mean that there is no adequate technology available ...

A Very Super Market · 12-31-08, 01:44 AM

I thought the Challenger 2 was a fine tank. And the Centurion. Sea Harriers are the only successful VTOL aircraft in history.

Letum · 12-31-08, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

The Spitfire & Mosquito with Merlin engine?
How about the 15inch Mk. I gun and the Spearfish torpedo also Trafalgar submarines?

I think the Brits (or Europe) just don't boast so much - that doesn't mean that there is no adequate technology available ...

The Mosquito, maybe, but it was only any use as an idea for the few years between
it's invention and the invention of the jet.

The spitfire had plenty of counterparts.

A Very Super Market · 12-31-08, 02:23 AM

The FW 190 comes into mind...

Britian really didn't have to care about making aircraft after the US came in, why build Spitfires and Hurricanes when you can have P-38s, 51s, and 47s?

joegrundman · 12-31-08, 02:39 AM

I don't think that is true - Britain's war economy remained in overdrive right up to the end

UnderseaLcpl · 12-31-08, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

The Spitfire & Mosquito with Merlin engine?
How about the 15inch Mk. I gun and the Spearfish torpedo also Trafalgar submarines?

I think the Brits (or Europe) just don't boast so much - that doesn't mean that there is no adequate technology available ...

Fair enough. But I'd take a DB601 over a Merlin anyday. Or a Junkers Jumo, or a BMW 004. Kudos to the Brits, though for their part in the Avro-Lycoming turbine

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

I thought the Challenger 2 was a fine tank. And the Centurion. Sea Harriers are the only successful VTOL aircraft in history.

Firstly, Sea Harriers are most certainly not the only successful VTOLs, by which I assume you mean VTOL fixed-wing aircraft. The Yakolev Yak-38 Forger and AV8-B Harrier II both out-class it. The V-22 Osprey is another successful design, despite the extraordinarily inefficient development process. The whole reason that some British vessels are equipped with "ski-jumps" is because the Sea Harrier could not provide adequate lift capability in vertical take offs. A problem that the aforementioned examples lack. It's a superb plane, make no mistake, but it isn't the only one, and it isn't the best.

As far as the Challenger and Centurion go, both are outmoded in terms of the modern first-world MBT. They did, admittedly, outclass the U.S.'s remarkably terrible M60 and variants thereof, but they lacked the quantity, ease of manufacture, and ruggedness of the equivalent area Soviet tanks, especially considering the manufacturing capabilities of the U.K. Both are inferior to the Leopard 1, and the M1 abrams, so while they may be decent tanks, I'd hardly consider them a credit to the British armour legacy.

Oberon · 12-31-08, 07:05 AM

Hmmm, I wouldn't say we're the only industry in Europe that knows how to build guns. The German tank industry certainly hasn't lost its potency over the years. The Leopard II MBT is a fine piece of kit.
What the problem is, is our governments inept handling of budget and a culture of want want, give give. People expect something for nothing, and when you couple that up with widespread back-pocketing at the top, then there's not a great deal left to put into the budget.
It's all red-tape, fat cats and mismanagement.
Take a look at the Astute, how badly behind schedule she was until they turned the management upside down and shook it until all the crap fell out.
Besides, these days, war is a different creature, as that article mentioned, we're after fast, light but tough infantry carriers, not heavy main battle tanks because our enemy doesn't run around in a T-90 but on the back of an assault bike with an RPG launcher. Governments tend to have the attitude now that 'The Cold War is over' 'We don't need to worry about big weapons such as tanks and aircraft carriers any more'. At this point in time, they're right, an aircraft carrier is not much use against an insurgent, it won't prevent a suicide bomber from blowing up a marketplace, but I just get this horrible feeling it'll be the '20s all over again one day, when we'll suddenly realise that we've been caught with our trousers around our ankles and we'll have to run to catch up. :hmm:

Lurchi · 12-31-08, 07:23 AM

The RR Merlin and the DB 600 series remained very close through the wars. Noone would talk of the P-51 if it wasn't mated with the Merlin engine which finally made it the dominant Long-range escort fighter. The Spitfire along with the 109 were the only fighters in production through the whole war and being able to remain in the top league (the 109 fell back however, as it wasn't able to cope with additional weight as good as the Spit).

You always find a fighter which is better than the Spit in a certain way. In overall performance it is still a remarkable plane and remained the most-feared by the pilots of the Luftwaffe through the whole war. Every german pilot swore it was a Spitfire which downed him even if it was a Hurricane or a P-xx ...

The AV-8B is pretty obviously based on the successful british Harrier design, which is far superior to the crappy und pretty uncapable Yak-38 Forger. The latter was a pilot killer and went out of service pretty soon. Maybe you meant the Yak-141 - its supersonic replacement, a probably very potent plane but sadly it didn't make it into the fleet after the soviet Breakdown.

About tanks: I think the 105mm L7 gun was also of british origin? It was some sort of standard gun - certainly not because it was a bad weapon.

Another thing which comes to my mind is the Tornado bomber which was probably the best in its class when it came into service and is still able to deliver its punch today ...

12-31-08, 12:03 AM	#2
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I agree. It is hard to think of a really origional and innovative British weapon that proved it's self in combat after 1900. __________________

12-31-08, 12:24 AM	#3
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	the hedgehog __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

12-31-08, 01:44 AM	#5
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I thought the Challenger 2 was a fine tank. And the Centurion. Sea Harriers are the only successful VTOL aircraft in history. __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

12-31-08, 02:23 AM	#7
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The FW 190 comes into mind... Britian really didn't have to care about making aircraft after the US came in, why build Spitfires and Hurricanes when you can have P-38s, 51s, and 47s? __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

12-31-08, 02:39 AM	#8
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	I don't think that is true - Britain's war economy remained in overdrive right up to the end __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

12-31-08, 01:39 AM	#4
Lurchi Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wilhelmshaven, Germany Posts: 181 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	The Spitfire & Mosquito with Merlin engine? How about the 15inch Mk. I gun and the Spearfish torpedo also Trafalgar submarines? I think the Brits (or Europe) just don't boast so much - that doesn't mean that there is no adequate technology available ...

12-31-08, 07:05 AM	#10
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Hmmm, I wouldn't say we're the only industry in Europe that knows how to build guns. The German tank industry certainly hasn't lost its potency over the years. The Leopard II MBT is a fine piece of kit. What the problem is, is our governments inept handling of budget and a culture of want want, give give. People expect something for nothing, and when you couple that up with widespread back-pocketing at the top, then there's not a great deal left to put into the budget. It's all red-tape, fat cats and mismanagement. Take a look at the Astute, how badly behind schedule she was until they turned the management upside down and shook it until all the crap fell out. Besides, these days, war is a different creature, as that article mentioned, we're after fast, light but tough infantry carriers, not heavy main battle tanks because our enemy doesn't run around in a T-90 but on the back of an assault bike with an RPG launcher. Governments tend to have the attitude now that 'The Cold War is over' 'We don't need to worry about big weapons such as tanks and aircraft carriers any more'. At this point in time, they're right, an aircraft carrier is not much use against an insurgent, it won't prevent a suicide bomber from blowing up a marketplace, but I just get this horrible feeling it'll be the '20s all over again one day, when we'll suddenly realise that we've been caught with our trousers around our ankles and we'll have to run to catch up. :hmm:

12-31-08, 07:23 AM	#11
Lurchi Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wilhelmshaven, Germany Posts: 181 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	The RR Merlin and the DB 600 series remained very close through the wars. Noone would talk of the P-51 if it wasn't mated with the Merlin engine which finally made it the dominant Long-range escort fighter. The Spitfire along with the 109 were the only fighters in production through the whole war and being able to remain in the top league (the 109 fell back however, as it wasn't able to cope with additional weight as good as the Spit). You always find a fighter which is better than the Spit in a certain way. In overall performance it is still a remarkable plane and remained the most-feared by the pilots of the Luftwaffe through the whole war. Every german pilot swore it was a Spitfire which downed him even if it was a Hurricane or a P-xx ... The AV-8B is pretty obviously based on the successful british Harrier design, which is far superior to the crappy und pretty uncapable Yak-38 Forger. The latter was a pilot killer and went out of service pretty soon. Maybe you meant the Yak-141 - its supersonic replacement, a probably very potent plane but sadly it didn't make it into the fleet after the soviet Breakdown. About tanks: I think the 105mm L7 gun was also of british origin? It was some sort of standard gun - certainly not because it was a bad weapon. Another thing which comes to my mind is the Tornado bomber which was probably the best in its class when it came into service and is still able to deliver its punch today ...