Are they trying to make Iraq look like a Crusade? Christmas in Iraq.

Aramike · 12-22-08, 04:32 AM

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Originally Posted by subchaser12

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Originally Posted by Aramike

I guess that has about as much basis in reality is one of your typical arguments, subchaser12. :rotfl: You always have these big, bold claims but never really show how they are true... probably because the only person who thinks you know what you're talking about is yourself.

How, again, is wanting tolerance to go both ways arrogant?

Aramike ever been in the military? I don't want to accuse you of being a chickenhawk before I ask you that.

19 years in, buddy. Worked in Intelligence for a good portion of my career, too. Specialized in Intentions towards the end of my career although worked on threat assessments and such earlier on.

subchaser12 · 12-22-08, 04:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Aramike

19 years in, buddy. Worked in Intelligence, too. Specialized in Intentions towards the end of my career.

Why am I not surprised. Is it any wonder our military a bunch of screwups. You were one of the smart ones. haha.

I remember 15 years ago like it was yesterday. This kid with missing teeth and long hair at the airport. I asked "so what MOS you get?" He said intelligence. I got the sick sinking feeling in my stomach and I knew before the plance even took off the military was going to be a ****storm.

Aramike · 12-22-08, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subchaser12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

19 years in, buddy. Worked in Intelligence, too. Specialized in Intentions towards the end of my career.

Why am I not surprised. Is it any wonder our military a bunch of screwups. You were one of the smart ones. haha.

I remember 15 years ago like it was yesterday. This kid with missing teeth and long hair at the airport. I asked "so what MOS you get?" He said intelligence. I got the sick sinking feeling in my stomach and I knew before the plance even took off the military was going to be a ****storm.

Our military is a bunch of screwups?

Wow, you really are an idiot.

See, in intel, you have to back up your suppositions with facts. You're probably glad the same doesn't apply to you on a message board.

Thanks for showing what you really think about your country and its fighting men and women. Personally, part of me hopes that one day you'll need help from one of those screwups who finished their service and reentered civilian life. And, I hope they know what you think of them, and leave you hanging high and dry.

People like you don't deserve the freedoms our brave men and women fight for.

subchaser12 · 12-22-08, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

Our military is a bunch of screwups?

Wow, you really are an idiot.

See, in intel, you have to back up your suppositions with facts. You're probably glad the same doesn't apply to you on a message board.

Thanks for showing what you really think about your country and its fighting men and women. Personally, part of me hopes that one day you'll need help from one of those screwups who finished their service and reentered civilian life. And, I hope they know what you think of them, and leave you hanging high and dry.

People like you don't deserve the freedoms our brave men and women fight for.

Dude, I was in the army. I know first hand what a bunch of dumbasses they are. Brave fighting men and women? How many commies did you shoot for me there Chairborne?

I said nothing bad about the country. Stop putting words in my mouth. The country is great, the military is just the countries refuse. Get over yourself man, the country is a lot more than just it's military. The military is just one over rated segment.

19 years? Wow, you wasted the best years of your life! Well you probably didn't, I doubt you left a truckload of broken hearted honeys back on the farm. Right wing males don't get much bedroom action. haha

Aramike · 12-22-08, 04:52 AM

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the military is just the countries refuse.

I was going to be mad at this, then I remembered the source.

Frankly, you don't deserve to be an American.

subchaser12 · 12-22-08, 05:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Aramike

Quote:

the military is just the countries refuse.

I was going to be mad at this, then I remembered the source.

Frankly, you don't deserve to be an American.

You are mad at this. It isn't a requirement to rub one out over war movies and offer nothing but gushing praise over men in uniforms to be an American.

I did offer gushing praise over the military until I went and saw firsthand what it was like. Sorry to break it to people but it's the scum of the country going in. From MEPs to basic training I was surrounded by gang bangers, thugs, white trash, hicks, morons, you name it. The only college poeple were ones who went broke and got kicked out of home by the family.

I even helped recruiters for awhile. I had that all American 6 foot tall white guy thing going. I asked the recruiters if we were going to go near a college to recruit smarter people. They laughed at me and said "hell no, we are going to the hood and the trailer parks". That we did.

It's the same in any army the world over. You think the nations best and brightest are maning the machine guns and going out on patrol? Nope, they are the people who got fired from McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

Skybird · 12-22-08, 05:00 AM

Keep nation, people, politicians and military separate.

Iraq was screwed up by political ideologists, not by the military - the Pentagon was very hesitent to go there, and did not like the initial idea. Of course, it obeyed to the orders to go there, and how.

A nation's and people's value is not represented by its military only. Soldiers are not the better citizens, nor are they the elite of a people. They are one part of it - and not even a representative part of it, seen from a sociological point of view. The rich and educated elites, and those rejecting military service, are underrepresented in it, so are various ethnic and/or religious groups and eventually females. That a nation's military is a mirror of it's social community, is a popular myth.

Politicians are a kind of their own, they only partially represent nation's values, or their people, and they tend to abuse the military. The people certainly often is stupid enough to vote for this or that given idiot, that is part of their share of responsibility for the state of their society. But certainly it is better that stupid politicians tell the military what to do, than the military telling the politicians.

The industrial-military complex, as Eisenhower put it, now is an abstract entity of it'S own, and is more defined by a network of mutual relations and allying of interests from various sides, than by solid existence.

It all ain't no perfect. Maybe one could imagine better ways of doing - but whether mankind is capable and willing to implement these better visions, must be put in doubt. And whether the current ways of doing are sufficient, must be put in doubt as well, if considering the fact that we are destroying our own basis of suvival for short-termed lobby interests, and doing so with remarkable enthusiasm and self-deception.

Aramike · 12-22-08, 05:18 AM

Skybird, I agree with a lot of what you said. I could be wrong, but it seems that you share my quest to look at things as how they really are, versus through a red or blue lense.

That being said, I do find it infuriating when one denigrates our military. The so-called "refuse" of our nation effectively operates some of the most high-tech equipment known to man. The efficiency of the US military is unrivaled in history. That being said, this so-called "refuse" still puts their lives on the line for their nation on a daily basis.

I'd like to see subchaser12 live in a USA without its military. I'd like to see the nature of his dissent after he posts it using his freedoms picked from his Freedom Tree.

Aramike · 12-22-08, 05:25 AM

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You are mad at this. It isn't a requirement to rub one out over war movies and offer nothing but gushing praise over men in uniforms to be an American.

No, but to be American is to use the freedoms granted and maintained by our fighting men and women.

Appreciating that isn't "rubbing one out" - it's understanding history and world affairs.

Quote:

I did offer gushing praise over the military until I went and saw firsthand what it was like. Sorry to break it to people but it's the scum of the country going in. From MEPs to basic training I was surrounded by gang bangers, thugs, white trash, hicks, morons, you name it. The only college poeple were ones who went broke and got kicked out of home by the family.

For some reason, I doubt this.

The Basic Training program your parole officer assigned to you doesn't count as military, by the way.

Quote:

It's the same in any army the world over. You think the nations best and brightest are maning the machine guns and going out on patrol? Nope, they are the people who got fired from McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

Silly me. I forgot that there was nothing more technical to the military than manning machine guns. Which makes me again wonder if you were really ever in the military, and if so, what the nature of your discharge was....

subchaser12 · 12-22-08, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

That being said, I do find it infuriating when one denigrates our military. The so-called "refuse" of our nation effectively operates some of the most high-tech equipment known to man. The efficiency of the US military is unrivaled in history. That being said, this so-called "refuse" still puts their lives on the line for their nation on a daily basis.

You just said earlier "I was going to be mad at this but I won't". Now you find it infuriating. You are a liar too. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

I agree, we do have the most high tech military equipment on the plant. What is your point? We pick fights with countries like Vietnam and Iraq and we have to go toe to toe with ****ty M-16s. Our troops are loaded with so much body armor and gear they can't run any distance. No wonder the Hajis can run away at will. Despite our lazer guided this, and nuclear that most of the fighting is still done with small arms you could find at a gun show in America. We are geared for a conventional war. How useful are our amazing nuclear subs in Iraq? How really wonderfully useful were our 3,000+ nuclear warheads in Vietnam?

Ok the nightvision is good and the airstrikes are good. So is the artillery, but except for the nightvision, wars haven't changed much since World War 2.

Besides if our military is as hot as you say how do you explain Blackwater USA and all the contractors? Why isn't the good ol American soldier good enough to protect the important people? They know as well as I do the military is a bunch of boneheads. Yes blackwater is mostly ex-military minus one important aspect, the military.

Ol Paul Bremer didn't want Timy whitetrash from Nowhere TN covering his asss in the warzone did he? He knows better.

AVGWarhawk · 12-22-08, 07:14 AM

Crusade or not, I would not be wearing the red Santa suit.....easy target

12-22-08, 10:57 AM

"Good kids dress up as elves, naughty kids get water torture."

Man, what a freaky looking Santa. Looks like a gimp from some s/m-party. Not that I have personal knowledge of such things.

12-22-08, 05:00 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,612 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Keep nation, people, politicians and military separate. Iraq was screwed up by political ideologists, not by the military - the Pentagon was very hesitent to go there, and did not like the initial idea. Of course, it obeyed to the orders to go there, and how. A nation's and people's value is not represented by its military only. Soldiers are not the better citizens, nor are they the elite of a people. They are one part of it - and not even a representative part of it, seen from a sociological point of view. The rich and educated elites, and those rejecting military service, are underrepresented in it, so are various ethnic and/or religious groups and eventually females. That a nation's military is a mirror of it's social community, is a popular myth. Politicians are a kind of their own, they only partially represent nation's values, or their people, and they tend to abuse the military. The people certainly often is stupid enough to vote for this or that given idiot, that is part of their share of responsibility for the state of their society. But certainly it is better that stupid politicians tell the military what to do, than the military telling the politicians. The industrial-military complex, as Eisenhower put it, now is an abstract entity of it'S own, and is more defined by a network of mutual relations and allying of interests from various sides, than by solid existence. It all ain't no perfect. Maybe one could imagine better ways of doing - but whether mankind is capable and willing to implement these better visions, must be put in doubt. And whether the current ways of doing are sufficient, must be put in doubt as well, if considering the fact that we are destroying our own basis of suvival for short-termed lobby interests, and doing so with remarkable enthusiasm and self-deception. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 12-22-08 at 06:12 AM.

12-22-08, 07:14 AM	#11
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,254 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Crusade or not, I would not be wearing the red Santa suit.....easy target __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

12-22-08, 10:57 AM	#12
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	"Good kids dress up as elves, naughty kids get water torture." Man, what a freaky looking Santa. Looks like a gimp from some s/m-party. Not that I have personal knowledge of such things. Last edited by OneToughHerring; 12-22-08 at 11:00 AM.

12-22-08, 05:18 AM	#8
Aramike Ocean Warrior Best of SUBSIM Chairman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 3,207 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Skybird, I agree with a lot of what you said. I could be wrong, but it seems that you share my quest to look at things as how they really are, versus through a red or blue lense. That being said, I do find it infuriating when one denigrates our military. The so-called "refuse" of our nation effectively operates some of the most high-tech equipment known to man. The efficiency of the US military is unrivaled in history. That being said, this so-called "refuse" still puts their lives on the line for their nation on a daily basis. I'd like to see subchaser12 live in a USA without its military. I'd like to see the nature of his dissent after he posts it using his freedoms picked from his Freedom Tree.