Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Rockin Robbins]

Here we are again, the Kapitan_Phillips thread hijackers (sorry), but we had a spirited and really important discussion going on.

One group of people say the swastika is legitimate when used in personal signatures, including self-portraits as a smiling German captain under the Nazi flag with girlfriend/wife/other, glorious medals, manly Latin slogan, etc. The war is over and these symbols have no power.

Another group of people, to which I am an unwilling but still enthusiastic member, having been convinced by a friend I respect greatly who lost his family to the Nazis in the Ukraine, says that so long as there are neo-Nazis out there sincerely and with violence advocating the anti Jewish, gypsy, slav, heck, anybody not "Aryan" other than themselves, "cleanse the world of these subhumans" philosophy, that Nazi symbols mean something ugly and present. We should not use them out of respect for those who are still targeted for destruction by vicious people using those symbols as a rallying point.

One argument is the "immersion" argument. "How can we take our U-Boat mission seriously if our flag has a teddy bear in the middle of it? (I put it there just to tweak 'em) OK, I see your point. Kill the teddy bear and use whatever Charlie Chaplin used in his movie. That was cool!

If you look at it closely, the immersion argument is a crock of bull. I can't say it so I'm going to have to quote Ducimus, author of Trigger Maru Overhauled.

The object of attention in these games, is, and should be, the submarine and what it does. No more, no less. Now there has to be some ambiance to draw the player in for immersion sakes, however, there is a line there.

For example, i have conciously, avoided waving the American flag in TMO. Except for the background movie by Captain Cox in the main menu, you won't find national or patriotic references in TMO, at least, none that i placed. From my forum sig, to the intro screen of TMO, i have avoided displaying the American Flag. Why? It's certainly NOT because i'm unpatriotic. Far from it. Ive served for 7 years, and if called upon again, i would go without hesitation or complaint (but certainly with a feeling of dread, but thats another story). Why then? Because when you start displaying flags and other nationalistic symbols, now your getting political. And since the submarine sim community is a world wide thing, i wanted to avoid smearing my countries flag in their faces. Blatant flag waving turns people off, and i think it dishonors the colors when one waves it around like a high school cheer leaders set of pom pom's.

...And my question to you guys is, having played TMO, would you not agree that ive made it as immersive and authentic feeling , and yet, left political ideology, (male bovine excrement), and references out of it?

I think so, and that is why, when people think using the swaztika and Kreigsmarine references (awards/dec's/uniforms/etc) makes the game more immersive - i call (male bovine excrement)!

I think that's a valuable sentiment and I agree, although I'm not in a position to have been able to say it myself.