Venezuela shuts down free speech

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Oh my God. How absolutely deluded your thinking is. I can destroy every last statement you made regarding the Marxist crap you posted, but there is no hope for you. Your views regarding Cuba as some sort of paradise is disturbing.

Did I say that Cuba was a paradise? No. But given its relative state compared to many budding capitalist states int he third world its not bad. Notice that I said "not bad". I'd much rather be in Cuba that Sudan. But that said I'd never trade Canada for Cuba. I'm not defending Castro. He isn't a legitimate socialist leader. He's just a mostly benevolent dictator unless you argue or stand up. Then you get shot down. I have no delusions. However you seem to want to put words in my mouth. Heres a reminder for you: not all lefties are obcessed with utopian ideas. There is some moderation in what we expect of the world. And given the fact that Cuba has been cut off from the rest of the world for the last 50 years economically I'd say that quality of life is impressive compared to other more economically affluent countries that are in good with the US. Compare that to Pakistan that has a 7% growth rate and almost no middle class to speak of. Cuba has the entire world scared to trade with them and there are at least schools and hospitals. It isn't even close to a perfect place but considering the situation Castro hasn't been as bad as any of the despots that the US has itself backed in other countries.

And you're statements regarding Marxism sounds like propaganda literature from a commie booth when I watched an anti-war rally down at Berkeley last Spring. Are you sure you weren't copying it word for word? My goodness. You want people who don't take any of their own risk capital to get an equal share or equal say in an organization? You sir, are a commie. But if you stay in Canada when you have a Red revolution going on (for many decades now) down in Cuba, I can't take you seriously. Go down there and get your equal share, I say.

What is it with you Americans and your Commie fetish? Commie this, commie that. You know it sounds ignorant to blend the entire of the socialist mindset with a term that is dirtied by a state that was blatantly non-Communist in its behavior.

You want people who don't take any of their own risk capital to get an equal share or equal say in an organization?

Risk capital? Now who's throwing out propoganda? The reason most people have no "risk capital" to spend is because you can't become wealthy in a capitalist society without alot of luck. Sure you can get money, but money and wealth are a totally different game and to be able to become truly wealthy and independant and able to invest in oragnizations is nigh on impossible. The fact is that the Free Market is a sham in the US. Even if the concept as laid out by Adam Smith were feasible the US long ago demolished any real control on the power of those with the real wealth. I mean apparently a Corporation is a legal person under law, but hey you can't actually charge it with crimes or send it to prison. And of course the whole way we value things in our society is set in such a way that those with wealth always win. The fact that they couldn't be wealthy without our labour contributions is ignored meanwhile we use our time to invest our labour in the process which creates wealth and those that do the least work receive the most return. Having wealth is a spring board that lets you jump the line and get ahead of everyone. And given the way wealth is divided in our societies it denies the lion's share to the majority. Its even in the basic terminology that is used to describe market capitalism: "wealth trickles down to the workers". Why should it trickle down to the people who do all the work? Why should 1% of the people make 90% of the money?

Anyone that understands freedom knows that "rights" are meaningless unless you actually have the power to exercise them. Money is the real power in the world and those with it keep it. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I have the right to go to school and build a life but without any money to speak of I don't stand much of a chance of getting anywhere, especially in North America these days because most of the low skill jobs have been exported and all we're left with are high skill jobs that require expensive degrees. And even then theres no guarentee that I'll get a job because there are alot of people with that same degree. The fact is that all men are not created equal because to have more money than someone else immediately gives you more opportunity than the poorer man. And the real movers and shakers in this world didn't earn wealth legitimately or morally. Behind every great fortune is a great crime. Hell most of the United States was stolen from the natives through rip-off land trades and basic slaughter. And in Canada we did the same thing only we interned the aboriginals in schools and literally and figuratively raped their culture.

But I don't see you debunking my ideas and my words. All I hear is the old and tired "commie" bit where you laugh me out of the room and don't bother to actually articulate why your way is better. And don't tell me to move to another country and join a revolution there. Thats just juvenile. I have every right to want a better life here where I live because those are my rights. Or maybe you forget why we call it freedom. You don't have to be a saint to be a christian, so I say you don't have to be Marx-incarnate to believe in it.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Risk capital? Now who's throwing out propoganda? The reason most people have no "risk capital" to spend is because you can't become wealthy in a capitalist society without alot of luck. But I don't see you debunking my ideas and my words. All I hear is the old and tired "commie" bit where you laugh me out of the room and don't bother to actually articulate why your way is better. And don't tell me to move to another country and join a revolution there.

and the real movers and shakers didn't earn their welath legitimately or morally. Behind every great fortune is a great crime.

I have risk capital. And I pretty much started with nothing. I used to be poor, and I didn't get poorer. I found a way to go to college. I've built my life, worked hard, own a home, have a boat, earn a great living. And I've done so without government redistribution or interference. And I've done so with hard work, not luck. By your definition I didn't do it legitimately. You said it with your above statements. My own fortunes are not legitimate or moral. Behind every great fortune is a great crime? Where do you get this nonsense? The company I work for, putting up investment capital and risk for business expansion are doing so at the expense of other people? Despite the increases in payroll and employment opportunities within our organization, our growth is illegitimate and immoral? You truly think this way? This is why your thinking is so dangerous, and incompatible with freedom.

And I can't see you living in any free society yourself thinking that people pursuing their own freedoms and prospering, are somehow trampling on other people. You want equal outcomes and starting points. All guaranteed by government. This is not freedom at all. It's more like state sponsored economic tyranny. I started out lower on the totem pole than many others, and I'm a racial minority, yet I now have more than some of these people through my own hard work and persistence. How'd that happen? In your world it's not possible to achieve unless the government stops major economic powerhouses from expanding their business outlets, and make them redistribute their property directly to me and other working class people. Nobody ever did that for me, yet I've done very well so far. You say I'm putting words in your mouth. These are your thoughts directly, through your own beliefs and explanations of exploitation and how lefty politics are the cure. At any rate, you move all over the map with your arguments for socialism. And you pretty much only defend what it's supposed to do. I only speak of what it actually has done. Repress people's freedoms, destroy people's lives, and leave national economies in ruins. Let history be your guide here. And don't quibble about socialism not actually being truly represented anywhere because it has been tried. And humanity never allowed for it. They had to build fences to keep people in.

Since you love to prophecy about doom in other threads, let me give you mine. You will never see a working example of socialism. Nor will you see an attempted pure socialist state that can compete economically with democracy, freedom, and constitutional free republics. You will never see people living in a state where each gives "according to their ability" and takes "according to their needs" in peace. I don't personally need to debunk (even though I've already done it) your propaganda which reads like a brochure from a lefty anti-American protest event. History has done that already. Students on the left seem unwilling to learn however. You embody that with your views on Cuba. People are dying to get out of there. And you say that you would prefer that to places where you're free to leave. Despite your contrarian position, you do have idealistic delusions.

And I still challenge you to move to where Marxism is actually being attempted. I think Venezuela is trying to implement what you want. Quit quibbling and move there. Chavez is currently taking state ownership of all corporate entities down there so he can give them to the "People". If you were a man of your beliefs, you would move to Venezuela immediately. Chavez is currently implementing a system that will effectively stop the "exploitation" of the workers. Sounds to me like you would be happy there. I don't know how anybody could be happy in such a place, but from what you talk about, it might be the paradise you seek. I only wonder when Chavez will start building the fences to keep the masses from escaping. They may not be free or happy, but hey, at least they won't be exploited by the corporations...right?

[P_Funk]

See, now you're actually talking to me. I like this. You know you've gotten through on some level when you're being accused of being dangerous to freedom.

I don't doubt that you have achieved in your life. I never said that people can't achieve in the world through hard work, or that you can't achieve unless the government "handicaps" the opposition. Those are your charactierizations of socialist ideas that you use to summarize my own words. That you achieved is not the point. There are always people who achieve. Hard work pays for some. And it helps alot that we are currently living in the wealth bed of the world. But a personal example doesn't exclude the realities for the rest of the world. Market Capitalism works to an extent, but it is ultimately exploitative and the further down the line the worse it is. The low end exploits have of course been exported to other countries and now they're the ones fighting for the union rights and working for the wages that aren't even a potion of a percentage of the market value of what they're creating. In ourt countries though the middle class isn't what it used to be. The post WW2 days of the US were the high point where capitalism might seem like it really would work for everybody. Personal achievement is hard to get in a highly competitive market, even if you're qualified, and even then the fruits of your labour are always lower than they should be. Over the last 30 years the US has had a mostly strong economy but the rich-poor divide has widened. Wealth is being created but fewer people are enjoying it. And the illusion of financial security comes crashing down very often when a personal injury sucks up your money in medical bills if you live in the US. And getting ahead without money, though you can do it, is itself a suppressant to any personal competency. How many people accumulate exponential amounts of wealth when they didn't earn a penny becaues their fortunes were handed to them in family?

But this is pointless. I can't get you to see it my way in one little message board post. In the end I'm justifying every subtle detail of something that I believe in. Articulating it is hard indeed to those who believe in the status quo. Confronting conventional wisdom is something that even the most adept idealogues struggle to do. But what exists between us is a fundamental difference in how we view the values in the world. You see my views as dangerous to freedom, while I see the status quo as its own hinderance to freedom. The number of poor people that can't get out of their social limitations outnumber the successful by scores, even in the US. And the world itself is exploited by the few in the wealthier and less populous nations to the detriment to the majority elsewhere. I see the unchecked wealth of the few as a force that always seeks to exploit those that aren't as priviledged. Freedom isn't just a function of democratic institutions but of the empowerment of wealth. I believe in a kind of fairness and equality that should be above the priviledge of wealth. But go ahead and think that I just want to steal money and hand it out to bums. What I call regulation you call suppressing achievements. The fundamental role of the govenment itself is differnt in our minds.

There is always a better way and unlike you seem to think the sum total of my views and beliefs don't equal what I want to see in my lifetime. The framework of my beliefs are a guide for what I think should happen in general and then you work the realities of the world around them. You decide on whats fair and not fair and then you try and level the rises and falls in the landscape. If you're too ambitious you'll fail, no matter what you try. You can have a goal but still look to the next few steps. And the way I see it what right do any of us have for determining the way the world works for our children. All we can do is reform our world while we have the power and the opportunity (however limited it might be) and then leave that legacy to the next generation. Don't misunderstand me. I don't want another Red October. But the nations that are more even handed in their approach to social reforms like the ones which I look to for ideas you dismiss as "watered down". Democracy was watered down for centuries. But whatever. This is a futile discussion that hasn't been resolved by half the wars in the 20th century.

Thanks for making it hard for me.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

And the illusion of financial security comes crashing down very often when a personal injury sucks up your money in medical bills if you live in the US. And getting ahead without money, though you can do it, is itself a suppressant to any personal competency. How many people accumulate exponential amounts of wealth when they didn't earn a penny becaues their fortunes were handed to them in family?


There is always a better way and unlike you seem to think the sum total of my views and beliefs don't equal what I want to see in my lifetime. The framework of my beliefs are a guide for what I think should happen in general and then you work the realities of the world around them. Don't misunderstand me. I don't want another Red October. But the nations that are more even handed in their approach to social reforms like the ones which I look to for ideas you dismiss as "watered down". Democracy was watered down for centuries. But whatever. This is a futile discussion that hasn't been resolved by half the wars in the 20th century.

Thanks for making it hard for me.

Ahh. I see. Just a question for you. Do you have a stake of ownership in anything? Anything at all other than the simple stuff. A house, a business,....anything? If not, do you ever plan on it?

[TteFAboB]

Now that you've finished:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Chavez is currently taking state ownership of all corporate entities down there so he can give them to the "People".

The magic word here is "all". That's a grave mistake. While investments in industries expropriated by Chavez have relocated elsewhere (for the most part to Columbia, Brazil and Chile), the flux of Brazilian investments in Venezuela and the trade, considered in numbers, money or volume, has not only remained stable, with an expectable decline in his first years indeed, but as of the last year and this year has steadily increased. Never before so much Brazilian money poured into Venezuela. Chavez needs the Brazilian state and the Brazilian economy to cover some of the holes he ran out of oil to fill for himself, projects like the subway of Caracas, a dam, a refinery he split 50/50, possibly oil tankers and of course the consumer goods only a foreign economy can provide and the other commodities necessary to keep the machines operating.

You shouldn't be fooled so easily by rhetoric. Do you think the Oil companies that helped him drill in Orinoco didn't knew they were going to get robbed sooner or later? If I'm not mistaken, all of these companies, but for sure at least some of them, had already experienced expropriation in Azerbaijan and elsewhere before. They knew what they were getting into perfectly well and they went ahead because Chavez is not mad to assume full control of them. He will only steal a big chunck of their profits and take the jobs for himself as he needs every job he can get to distribute among his supporters to satisfy them, but never make the business of the corporations he needs unprofitable.

Some sectors or some companies were and will continue to be expropriated, others will not. How do you expect him to feed the people? He's already tight on Oil, he needs capitalism both to run the economy and to pay taxes. What he does is assume control from the top down. What's already there will continue to exist, imports from Brazil, as I mentioned, have risen, the difference is that no more new companies should appear or grow without his consent and control. A few days ago he just lost a massive investment from a food company that has decided to relocate to Brazil. No biggie, it will produce in Brazil and export to Venezuela from there. It's easy for a generation that was born in misery not to know the difference between what they have and an American super-market, but the current generation in Venezuela knows it full well and won't accept having to live with one flavor of everything, from toothpaste to meat to fruits. The poorest in Venezuela are blackmailed into accepting this worsening in quality of life under the false promise of a better future. Don't worry, it's only temporary (off scene) not. So the only thing he's "giving to the people" is a worse life.

I don't know how anybody could be happy in such a place

The protests, the strike of the PDVSA, speak for themselves. Alot of people sure aren't. There were reports about the "happiness" of the Venezuelan poorest in Brazilian newspapers and two magazines, I haven't done the clipping and they're sitting somewhere in a pile of boxes. The point is, Chavez can't provide benefits for everybody. Some people will get money, some will get a job, others won't get anything and will only see their little wealth dissolve in a sea of inflation. The larger the state grows, the smaller the slices of the remains of the cake become. Those who fell for the blackmail but didn't get their part of the deal regret having committed to it. Elsewhere in the continent people don't want "such a place" either, to a greater or lesser extent, he was rejected in Mexico and Peru, Bolivia is chaotic and unstable, an opinion poll from last year pointed that Chavez support in Brazil to be of 14% and support for his actions at 17% ([url]http://clipping.planejamento.gov.br/Noticias.asp?NOTCod=275689[/url]) and this isn't taking into account everything he has done or that has happened since then. The problem is, now it's too late. The electoral exit has been shut and the mouth of the opposition is being shut aswell. He can only be overthrown by force and he's alot stronger than isolated poor people pressured from above by Chavez and from below by crime. Which brings us to the future.

I only wonder when Chavez will start building the fences to keep the masses from escaping.

To put things in perspective now, these "masses" aren't that massive. Venezuela is an irrelevant small country with an irrelevant small economy in a forgotten part of the world with an interesting history that is just as forgotten and which has only temporarily appeared before the rest of the world because, once again in recent history, a dictator has used the income from the monopoly of monoculture to trick the crowds, both in and outside of his country. Don't expect drama. You'll continue to see clashes with the police, you'll continue to see protests, but you won't see the Berlin wall or the Cuban rafts because if Venezuela isn't surrounded by a wall or by water it is surrounded by dense jungle. Don't laugh, the Amazon makes the Mexican border look like a walk in the park, except for the price of raising a fence which is just as high or more for a small nation. But yes, there are already people moving out. Both political refugees and regular people. For all its problems, there are other economies in the region that offer a a better life.

What Chavez would like to do is create a larger Cuba but since he hasn't eliminated the opposition and he can't afford to keep his oil bubble full without foreign money he needs to take the steps he can take, not the steps he would like to take, he must obey the speed limit, not hit the pedal to the metal. His perspectives are pretty good. He needs to stop the rioting and disorganize the opposition. He will need a police state to keep things in order and as Syria does with Mosques (have a snitch listening to any possible subversive conversation), he has been taking a double approach with Churches: on one hand attempt to infiltrate them to use them as a resounding box of obedience to the regime, on the other simply start opposing Christianity, perhaps before it becomes too much of a refuge for the consciences.

They may not be free or happy, but hey, at least they won't be exploited by the corporations...right?

Exploited by corporations? Chavez sells virtually all his Oil to the US. That's complete economical submission, full dependency. Is that how you stop this exploitation thing?

Chavez is the exploiter. When he takes the richness of Venezuela and dumps it in Bolivia, Argentina, in the TeleSur or in crappy movies, when he uses it to subsidize useless employees or bribe his supporters, at the same time that he perverts history, attacks the Church and trumps over freedom of speech he's fitting the glove.

I've said pervert history because he has abused of the name of Simón Bolívar. Bolívar inspired himself in the American revolution, defended freedom, reason, order and the free-market and fought for the unity of the Hispanic America in a Republic modelled after the USA (http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/nacional/selecao_detalhe.asp?ID_RESENHA=291891).

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

History now repeats itself, with the near exact circumstances that slowly brought Stalin into power.

I think that was actually brought about by Stalin holding the job as HR Manager for the Bolshies.

[Sea Demon]

I don't think we disagree on much TteFAboB. I do agree that the word "all" was a broad sweep, but it's not innacurate to say that he is directly attempting to control sectors of the Venezuelan economy in the name of some type of socialistic reform. You're right. Chavez is an exploiter. In a big way. I think your analysis is very thorough and spot on. It is foolish indeed not to see how the people living through this want to leave and in a hurry. It's easy to see how the threat of state interference and control can be worrisome to those who actually have a stake in their society. It's obvious that he will not implement a socialist solution as that is not possible. Socialism being unworkable tripe. His only recourse is to bribe his supporters to ease his control. It's always the same old..same old with these guys, ain't it?

Some people will get money, some will get a job, others won't get anything and will only see their little wealth dissolve in a sea of inflation. The larger the state grows, the smaller the slices of the remains of the cake become.

That applies to the management of social provisions within a state. And to total economic output. It's harder to make the cake larger in a system such as this. I wouldn't count on Brazil or anybody else to throw any money or long term investments here forever. People simply will not take the risk, unless they simply have no other alternatives. Brazil does have alternatives. I just think they don't want any crazy revolutions upsetting their apple carts. This I'm sure they fear most.

@ P_Funk - You gonna answer my questions or not? It's really simple. Do you have a stake of ownership in anything whatsoever? Do you own a house? Do you have any cars/boats/etc. Do you own a business? And if not, do you plan to in the future?

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

@ P_Funk - You gonna answer my questions or not? It's really simple. Do you have a stake of ownership in anything whatsoever? Do you own a house? Do you have any cars/boats/etc. Do you own a business? And if not, do you plan to in the future?

You know I don't actually troll these boards 24/7. You can at least give me a few hours before you start being pushy. Not very courteous at all.

What difference does it make what I own? Besides its pretty shallow to be asking a pinko-commie nut job if he owns anything as a means to short his point of view.:rotfl:

I am in fact a student and am in the process of a hiring competition for a Federal Government job that, hopefully should I get it sometime in the next month, will allow me to make a more than decent wage. Right now my only financial investments are in my continuing college education while I live at home withmy parents. And given the economic climate in Vancouver at the moment buying a house even if you have the means is a gross waste of money when the market declines. Add to that the fact that tuition prices are out of control around here. But thats my current "investment" in the future.

So if you're trying to corner me by suggesting that I'm a bum thats too lazy to try and make a living then theres your raw material. Or maybe you're going for the old "when you have to pay taxes you'll hate them too" thing. Hmmm...

[Happy Times]

Silenced Venezuelan TV station moves to YouTube

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americ...dia/index.html

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

You know I don't actually troll these boards 24/7. You can at least give me a few hours before you start being pushy. Not very courteous at all.

What difference does it make what I own? Besides its pretty shallow to be asking a pinko-commie nut job if he owns anything as a means to short his point of view.:rotfl:

I am in fact a student and am in the process of a hiring competition for a Federal Government job that, hopefully should I get it sometime in the next month, will allow me to make a more than decent wage. Right now my only financial investments are in my continuing college education while I live at home withmy parents. And given the economic climate in Vancouver at the moment buying a house even if you have the means is a gross waste of money when the market declines. Add to that the fact that tuition prices are out of control around here. But thats my current "investment" in the future.

So if you're trying to corner me by suggesting that I'm a bum thats too lazy to try and make a living then theres your raw material. Or maybe you're going for the old "when you have to pay taxes you'll hate them too" thing. Hmmm...

Actually, I got the big answer I was looking for. You are a student that has the whole world figured out, yet have never had real world experience. You might be surprised how your views change as you actually get into the real world. Some people don't change. I remember my undergraduate college days (early 1990's). They don't seem like that long ago. But I understand, and I should have guessed, you have no investment or stake of ownership in anything. So it's real easy to sit back and tell everyone else what they should be doing with their own private property and lives. It's real easy to sit back with no experience or any stake in the game and call anyone who has achieved anything of value a criminal or illegitimate. It's very simple to demagogue people who have taken enourmous risk and have gotten spectacular results as crooks. Freedom allows such accomplishments. If you can't handle it, you don't belong in a free society at all. You need to live in a land of dictators that hand out your crumbs. Freedom doesn't guarantee equality. Freedom can't do that. For it to be able to do that, it must confiscate other people's property or freedoms. But Freedom does guarantee opportunity. Either you work for it, or you don't get it. Instead of worrying about everyone else's private property or situation, why don't you focus on attaining some yourself. You're responsible for your life, not mine. You said earlier that people can't attain wealth in a capitalist society without alot of luck. That statement is totally naive, and shows me your lack of real world experience or knowledge about how business, investment/risk, and freedom work. People who get older with your outlook are often bitter and depressed. These people often never have any incentive, drive, or optimism for anything. This is how socialism/marxism kills the human spirit.

The facts are, people of your age and experiences usually have nothing figured out. Especially college students with the know it all attitude. You have no experience paying taxes, meeting a mortgage, working in any professional capacity (where your decisions and actions may have big consequences), or raising and sustaining a family. I just looked at your public profile, and now I get who you are. No offense, but you have yet to know what the hell life really is. I've seen people from my days that used to be hardcore lefties, yet have changed their outlook once they actually got a taste of life. Real life. Real decisions. Real consequences. Some have actually surprised me. You want a good life and success, you have to work for it. Sorry, don't expect anybody to hand you anything. Get off your butt, choose a field of study which is in demand, and work at it. Or save up money, open a business and work hard for it. You won't have too much trouble if you're worth your salt, have marketable skills, and present yourself properly. There are no large scale injustices out there stopping anybody in your country or mine. It's total BS anymore. If you're poor, you're doing the things which make you poor. If you went to college, and now can't get employed, how were your grades? How are you presenting yourself? Did you party all summer long or did you get that internship? Did you pick a major that is actually in demand? Life choices are something lefty socialists hate. And they hate taking responsibility for them. Nevertheless, personal life choices are what determines your outcome. You've got alot of learning ahead of you grasshopper. Best get busy.

[Tchocky]

Wow, I hope i don't get that narky when I leave college

oh, wait, forgot the obligatory smiley

nevermind

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Wow, I hope i don't get that narky when I leave college

oh, wait, forgot the obligatory smiley

nevermind

i've seen you in action on this forum. Don't have to wait to leave college. You're plenty narky yorself from what I've seen.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

i've seen you in action on this forum. Don't have to wait to leave college. You're plenty narky yorself from what I've seen.

yup, I like to take action in advance.
having tomorrow's breakfast at the moment, 1135pm. I want to get a good run at the day tomorrow

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

yup, I like to take action in advance.
having tomorrow's breakfast at the moment, 1135pm. I want to get a good run at the day tomorrow

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by Heibges

I think that was actually brought about by Stalin holding the job as HR Manager for the Bolshies.

So I guess that means I should be nice to the desk lady right?