Kilo spotting kilo

[Molon Labe]

Kapitan, I have to say that the two instances of supposed cheating that you called to our attention were very weak. It's cases like yours that, unfortunatlely, make Orm's fear of a "witch hunt" very real. If we could start blacklisting players who are pulling this $hit reliably, then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, you have proved to us that such an approach would quickly spiral out of control and hurt those who least deserve it.

[Kapitan]

That is true the evedence i gave i knew i was going to get one of only two answers.

One the mission replay was fake

Two it was lag

You can blame a lot on lag so much so it blind's you to the cheaters, and we all wonder why gamespy and the hyperlobby is empty.

I suggest you play some of these "cheaters" and then see what you got to say after it.

[Molon Labe]

I've played with and against both of them before. I have no problems to report.

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I can't believe you're defending this person.

Back when DW first came out and the Kilo BB cheat was discovered, there was no debate at all about it. The NB cheat is twice as bad as the BB cheat was, because unlike the BB cheat, there is ZERO chance of the NB cheat being used accidentally. But yet, here we stand, where cheating seems to be getting out of control on Gamespy, and now people here on Subsim are defending it. How the hell did this community reach this point after one short year? It's absolutely sickening.

"Nearly invisible" on the FRAZ? What are you talking about? There is either a red mark on the black display or there isn't. This is a bug in the game. It is not a "rule." Using it to gain an advantage over a player who either doesn't know or wouldn't exploit such a bug is not a "strategy."

I understand his point. It's the difference between using the game as a way to simulate being a submarine commander (and staying in character in that role), or playing the game to win by exploiting all possible game mechanics that can give an advantage. And the game mechanics include bugs.

This is not a very unusual opinion. I've seen the same in a criticism of World of Warcraft:
"6) The Terms of Service. The very idea of using the terms of service as the de facto way to enforce a certain player-behavior goes against everything I've learned. A game should be a system of rules that allow the player to explore. If the player finds loopholes, then the game developer should fix them. It's never, ever the player's fault: it's the game developer's fault. People who currently make deals with enemy faction (Horde or Alliance ) to trade wins in battleground games are not really at fault. They are playing in a system that forces anyone who wants to be rank 14 to do exactly that. A line in the Terms of Service saying that you shouldn't behave this way changes nothing, and teaches nothing."
Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...irlin_01.shtml

[Orm]

Let's cool down this discussion.
On the subject, I must admit that I, to my surprise, discovered today that the Kilo's "BB cheat" became the "NB cheat". And, because of the previous bug, I had to stop entirely to drive a Kilo for many months, now I have to do it again.

[Molon Labe]

Orm: It was possible to play the Kilo without using the BB cheat, and you can play the Kilo without using the NB cheat.

Wim: As for that quoted source... We used to be better than that.

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Wim: As for that quoted source... We used to be better than that.

I understand that, it's just a different way of looking at things. And those who exploit such bugs have a realistic attitude to combat: use all possible ways to get an advantage. The problem is that DW is supposed to be a simulation of real submarines, where this feature doesn't exist. The right solution is a patch that removes this difference in functionality between the real sonar and the game sonar. Various codes of conduct to determine which game features can and cannot be used are a very suboptimal way to deal with such things, and I think they should only be used if there is no other way to fix things (for example if there would not be another patch).

After all, while this is an obvious bug, there are several other parts of the game that could also be banned in such a code of conduct, because they do not fit in a realistic game either. You could ban raising the periscope for more than a few seconds, because real ASW units could detect it. You could ban the use of the submarine SAM missiles, because real tactics would focus on evading ASW helo's, not challenging them to a duel.

[Vasilly]

Whilst being VERY new to this site, and DW, (I've only got the demo, and am waiting delivery of the UK version, but am enjoying it emensely), I have seen this sort of discussion on many other sites on 'the net'.

It is a sad fact of life that we are human beings, and human beings will do things to their advantantage if the opportunity exists. If that means cheating, then people will do it. It spoils the enjoyment for many participants, and sometimes drives those 'genuine' participants to cheat just to get ahead of the cheaters. This is a very sad fact, but a fact none the less.

When all said and done, no matter how seriously you take this hobby, (and I take my computer hobbies VERY seriously), it is, after all, just virtual reality, and there is very little anyone can do about it.

We can complain until the cows come home, but it really isn't worth loosing sleep about. Threads like this will continue until the end of time, and are good for getting things off your chest, but in the long run, the only way to ensure 'proper' play, is to set up a server yourself, and invite only friends. Kind of defeats the object really.

/rant mode off

So, flame away if you so desire.

Bests
V

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Wim Libaers

I understand that, it's just a different way of looking at things. And those who exploit such bugs have a realistic attitude to combat: use all possible ways to get an advantage. The problem is that DW is supposed to be a simulation of real submarines, where this feature doesn't exist. The right solution is a patch that removes this difference in functionality between the real sonar and the game sonar. Various codes of conduct to determine which game features can and cannot be used are a very suboptimal way to deal with such things, and I think they should only be used if there is no other way to fix things (for example if there would not be another patch).

After all, while this is an obvious bug, there are several other parts of the game that could also be banned in such a code of conduct, because they do not fit in a realistic game either. You could ban raising the periscope for more than a few seconds, because real ASW units could detect it. You could ban the use of the submarine SAM missiles, because real tactics would focus on evading ASW helo's, not challenging them to a duel.

There is a grey area of what is cheating and what isn't, but this issue is NOT in the grey. Neither is a lot of the crap we hear from gamespy. And you're the only one that mentioned a "code of conduct." There's no slippery slope here.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Vasilly

Whilst being VERY new to this site, and DW, (I've only got the demo, and am waiting delivery of the UK version, but am enjoying it emensely), I have seen this sort of discussion on many other sites on 'the net'.

It is a sad fact of life that we are human beings, and human beings will do things to their advantantage if the opportunity exists. If that means cheating, then people will do it. It spoils the enjoyment for many participants, and sometimes drives those 'genuine' participants to cheat just to get ahead of the cheaters. This is a very sad fact, but a fact none the less.

When all said and done, no matter how seriously you take this hobby, (and I take my computer hobbies VERY seriously), it is, after all, just virtual reality, and there is very little anyone can do about it.

We can complain until the cows come home, but it really isn't worth loosing sleep about. Threads like this will continue until the end of time, and are good for getting things off your chest, but in the long run, the only way to ensure 'proper' play, is to set up a server yourself, and invite only friends. Kind of defeats the object really.

/rant mode off

So, flame away if you so desire.

Bests
V

It didn't used to be this way here. I loved being part of this community because we all respected each other too much to frack each other over like that. So yeah, I'm pissed off because it looks like we're degenerating to be like all those other gaming communities. It's not a club I wanted to be a part of.

[Wildcat]

I do not get what the issue is. Someone obviously used a cheat. It is not a feature, it is not "gaming the game", it is CHEATING outright, and the person or people doing it need to be identified so we do not have to WASTE OUR TIME playing with them on gamespy. It's nice to play with unknown players on gamespy every once in a while, but if that person is a known cheater, at least we can choose to avoid them.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

There is a grey area of what is cheating and what isn't, but this issue is NOT in the grey. Neither is a lot of the crap we hear from gamespy. And you're the only one that mentioned a "code of conduct." There's no slippery slope here.

There's cheating and then there's exploiting.

Cheating is when someone breaks the rules of the game in a deceitful manner. i.e. changing their database, secretly coding cheats into the mission scenario, etc.

An exploit is to take advantage of a weakness in the programming to use in a way unintended by the programmars. The "sub sails not radar detectable" is an exploit. The "wire guided torps can automatically tell between a CM and target", that used to be in one of the LW mod versions, was another exploit. None of them intended, but unfortunately ingame.

Randomly clicking to see if a contact shows up isn't a cheat, its exploiting an ingame bug, both of with are unfortunate. However, one of active *deception* the fault on the perpetrator, the other is a regretable profiteering the fault as much on the programmer.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Deathblow

There's cheating and then there's exploiting.

Cheating is when someone breaks the rules of the game in a deceitful manner. i.e. changing their database, secretly coding cheats into the mission scenario, etc.

An exploit is to take advantage of a weakness in the programming to use in a way. The "sub sails not radar detectable" is an exploit. The "wire guided torps can automatically tell between a CM and target" that used to be in one of the LW mod versions was an exploit. None of them intended, but unfortunately ingame.

Randomly clicking to see if a contact shows up isn't a cheat, its exploiting an ingame bug, both of with are unfortunate. However, one of active *deception* the fault on the perpetrator, the other is a regretable profiteering the fault as much on the programmer.

You're arguing about definitions that players just make up as they go along anways. The mechanical goings-on isn't what separates cheating from some lesser evil. What matters is the player's culpability in doing so. If this is something that the player had to do delilberately, and could not have done while playing the sim normally or triggered accidentally, then it is wrong, and it doens't matter if it had to do with editing the mission, altering the DB, or manipulating a particular interface. Those differences are just semantic bullsh1t.

[Orm]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Orm: It was possible to play the Kilo without using the BB cheat, and you can play the Kilo without using the NB cheat.

You are right, but suspicion from your opponent will always be - did he use the bug or not? :hmm:

[Molon Labe]

The whole point of using the cheat is to gain a detection range advantage. Unless the cheater gives up this advantage by closing to NB signal range before acting like he's tracking you, it's pretty easy to notice on the replay.