Pause for thought differences in education.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Perhaps as a non-American I should stay out of this but I really feel the need to say that I think Flamingboat touched on a very good point: everything is relative.

Yup, and my experience is is that comparing sorrow doesn't work. It only makes waves, ... bad ones for sure.

However, humility (not sure I got the right word here) is still a virtue. Better leave the comparing to the person him/herself.

[Kielhauler1961]

@ OLC:

DoB? Everybody else has...

[XLjedi]

C'mon now...

I know it's hard to admit but America is not all that bad of a place to live.

I was born on a Naval base, and started my life in a mobile home parked in Nowheresville. So don't gimme that, "I'm disadvantaged" crap. I'm not gonna sit quiet while someone tells the rest of the world if you're not born rich in America you're screwed. My first jobs were minimum wage, and I had to scrape together my own money for community college courses. You've got opportunities.

...and I dont' really like when folks hi-jack threads that I start so I'm not gonna go any further on the topic because it seems to be slipping into a political commentary. Which I doubt was the intent of the OP.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Kielhauler1961

@ OLC:

DoB? Everybody else has...

So did he, Page 1, Post #15.

Reading all the posts?

Gives me insight to what all of us were taught in our early years.
OLC was taught what was important to his area.
I was taught what was important to my area.
As others have pointed out for thier areas.

We, as an Inter-National Community?
We learn that not all we were taught is true,
nor complete!!

And I believe we all are learning a few most important things!
Don't believe everything your told by the News People
and Governments.

And don't place todays values and such on what happened in
the 40's.

Every decision back then was based on those times.
And each and every Country in the World based thier decisions
on the facts they had at the time.

To look back and say any country was wrong
by todays standards?

That's on a level saying Dinosaurs should not have ate each other!!

[Steeltrap]

Righto.

I'm Australian, born May '67.

My parents studied medicine, graduated 1952. They were born in 1926, so were at school during WWII. We had relatives killed in WWII. My parents knew friends/relatives of their families who were killed/captured, some in North Africa, others in the Pacific (it says something about the Japanese conduct in WWII that ALL decided being captured by the Gremans was infinitely preferable...mind you, about 4% of allied POWs died in German captivity, while the figure for those captured by Japs was around 26%.....so they were right!).

My interest in military history came about through playing war games in my teen years: all sorts of things from Tractics (rules for combat using 1/72 scale tank and soldier models) to Squad Leader, Midway, Bismarck, Second Frond, Fortress Europa etc..... I also got into RPGs (role playing, not the shoulder-launched variety!). My closest friends are those I've had since as far back as year 5 at school (yikes - that's 30+ years!!!!), and we all became friends partly through gaming.

I prefer Atlantic over Pacific because there is a steady swing from the Germans holding the advantages to the Allies doing so. The Allies get better escorts (and more of them), radar, better ASDIC, better weapons etc. The Germans get very little to offset that. In a game context, this means things get harder as the war progresses. It also means things get harder but you build experience to help cope with it. In short, there is a steady build up of tension and challenge.

The Pacific, in contrast, is a situation where the Allies continue to gain superiority in technology and resources. You get better boats, better torps, better radar etc. while the Japs gain very little in comparison (consider that Dick O'Kane was making surface attacks against convoys in 1944 as, even then, the Japs didn't have radar on most convoy escorts and, even when they did, it was so poor it wasn't a great influence on results!).

There's always the challenge of learning how best to use your boat's capabilities, and learn your enemies' strengths/weaknesses, so both sims have things to offer, but the Atlantic is always the more challenging for me (as it was historically).

As for other geopolitical comments etc I'll avoid them, although I do a lot of reading on such things (as it happens, I've just finished reading Nemesis: The Battle For Japan, 1944-45 by Max Hastings....a fascinating read).

One comment I will make is this: it frustrates me somewhat that most people in the Western world tend to overlook a fundamental truth about the European theatre of WWII - it was the USSR that was mainly responsible for the defeat of Germany.

Some really interesting info from other posters here!!

Cheers

Originally Posted by aaronblood

...and I dont' really like when folks hi-jack threads that I start so I'm not gonna go any further on the topic because it seems to be slipping into a political commentary. Which I doubt was the intent of the OP.

It's not a hijack because you don't like my story and viewpoint. If it would make you feel warm and fuzzy I could lie and say me and everyone in my family who joined the military dropped out of Yale and Harvard to uphold western civilization as we know it.

Yes you do have to be rich in this and any other country. Take George Bush for example, if he didn't come from a powerful and rich family he would be your insurance agent, not your president.

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

One comment I will make is this: it frustrates me somewhat that most people in the Western world tend to overlook a fundamental truth about the European theatre of WWII - it was the USSR that was mainly responsible for the defeat of Germany.

Some really interesting info from other posters here!!

Cheers

The USSR actually took Berlin. I do like to point this out here in the US. People get really angry because here in America we take 100% of the credit for beating Germany. America was an imporant part of a large coalition. America still talks about World War 2 like it was last week though. I can understand it because we have not won a war since. Korea, Vietnam and now Iraq. Our track record has been disastrous since. I think we are starting to look like Al Bundy from married with children who won't shut up about his touchdown pass back in highschool.

\

[Steeltrap]

I think the point was that this was intended to be a thread commenting on why people play the sim, and their preference for Atlantic or Pacific theatres.

Having said that, you're entirely correct in saying you've a right to express your views on the matter, including your own perspective on 'social' matters in the USA.

Just on that, there are any number of things one might observe:

* a 'pension' for ex-presidents was introduced as a result of President Truman leaving office without much in the way of personal assets. Given every president since has been a multimillionaire, this is somewhat ironic.

* the US has (indeed pretty much every society throughout history) always had a 'tradition' of the materially disadvantaged fighting the wars of the advantaged. In the civil war it was possible to avoid the draft if one had $300 dollars or an 'alternative' to fight on your behalf. There were cases of people sending slaves to fight instead of going themselves.

* you can add race to the mix. 'Non-white' groups tend to be materially disadvantaged so make up a disproportionate level of armed forces compared with their proportion of society at large. The US Army had separate blood transfusions for african american troops during WWII......

* most of these things boil down to the inevitable consequences of 2 related factors: human nature, and a system in which aggregation of personal wealth is seen as a worthy end unto itself (and I would apply that to any society, not just the USA, although it varies by degree depending on which society you consider). The fact is that the USA, as the richest nation on earth, could readily alleviate the sufferings of the majority of its citizens were there the will to do so. That it fails so egregiously to do so (consider the fact that there are something like 40,000,000 people without access to health care in the USA!!!!) is a direct consequence of a society preferring to place individual wealth and advantage over a sense of community. Do some research into what are even conservative estimates of the expenditure on the war in Iraq and then consider what that might have achieved in areas such as health and education and one is left with the inevitable conclusion that the USA feels it is better served killing people abroad than looking after its own citizenry. I find it hard to reconcile that with the stated position of being "the last, best hope of mankind on earth" or words to that effect.....

* none of this is intended to discount the many good things the USA does across the globe, for which it recieves scant recognition. It does, however, point out the many inconsistencies able to be found in such apparently contradictory behaviour.

* I once attended a function at which President Bush (the elder) was the featured guest (it was sponsored by my employer at the time). I asked him how he reconciled the fact that, in the last census, approximately 96% of respondants identified themselves as Christian, yet there persisted - domestically and internationally - no end of behaviour/policy/attitudes that were anything but reflective of what a really 'Christian' society might be expected to exhibit. They couldn't get the microphone away from me quickly enough.....

Anyway, without intending any disrespect to Flamingboat or any other poster, perhaps we're better served discussing the sim than these other issues. I'm happy to discuss these issues, mind you, but that is probably a discussion better conducted elsewhere.....

Cheers all!

[Kielhauler1961]

So did he, Page 1, Post #15.

My bad! Missed that. Apologies.

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

* I once attended a function at which President Bush (the elder) was the featured guest (it was sponsored by my employer at the time). I asked him how he reconciled the fact that, in the last census, approximately 96% of respondants identified themselves as Christian, yet there persisted - domestically and internationally - no end of behaviour/policy/attitudes that were anything but reflective of what a really 'Christian' society might be expected to exhibit. They couldn't get the microphone away from me quickly enough.....



Cheers all!

I can help you with that mystery. The American republican party and the Bush's especially are only "christian" at election time. Go check out the Bohemian grove, they are all a bunch of boy lovers. They are all war profiteers from Conneticuit. All three of them. Speaking of the Bush dynasty and World War 2. Look up Bush one, current George W's Grandfather. He was a world war 2 profiteer. He made money funding the Nazi's in th early days. Back then war profiteering was illegal, it isn't now as you can plainly see in Iraq.

It isn't fair to tell me to shut it, when you all bring up these juicy tidbits like the Bush's or how Russia took down Germany

I mean come on, you all act like you you have never seen a liberal uboat commander!

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

I think the point was that this was intended to be a thread commenting on why people play the sim, and their preference for Atlantic or Pacific theatres.

The thread is titled "Pause for thought differences in education" People are giving their age and any military background, or that of family members if any. I commented on this thread as it is a socioeconomic topic beyond just "why you play the game." I told my brief story about where I was born and to whom for the same reason everyone else did. To paint a short picture of how environmental determinism played or did not play a part in my views.

Being born working class in America as I said made me enlist, now had I been rich I would have joined but only after going to a Westpoint or another military academy. I found out when I enlisted that I knew more military history than most of the officers. I have seen troops complaining about getting sniped in Iraq hanging out of the top of the turrets on their tanks. I could have told them tha is called "pulling an Israeli" 12 years ago.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Flamingboat

Yes you do have to be rich in this and any other country.

OK, well now you're just screwed if you live on Earth and you're not rich.

Sorry bout that...

It's not that I don't like your life story, but your repeated message that you must be rich in America (and now I guess any country on Earth) or you're screwed is just patently false.

I told you, I was born into the same working class family as you. My social status did not force me to enlist. Perhaps you felt like you had no other choice because you didn't want to go to school anymore? ...that was your choice. If you can get by with C's in high school and hold down a min-wage job, you can take community college courses at night (I did).

Your assessment does not apply to me nor the vast majority of the professionals that I work with. If I'm telling you that you're absolute statement is false, and I'm proof; that it does not apply to me or the vast majority of my colleagues, I don't understand how you can keep repeating it as if I don't exist.

In 10 years I've come across maybe 3 trust-fund babies... Do you just classify everyone as screwed if they're not the CEO of a company? I'm in middle-management, I do fairly well. I'm not rich... but I'm certainly not screwed.

How much do you think a household needs to make in the US (or the world) to not be screwed?

Originally Posted by aaronblood

you can take community college courses at night (I did).

Your assessment does not apply to me nor the vast majority of the professionals that I work with. If I'm telling you that you're absolute statement is false, and I'm proof; that it does not apply to me or the vast majority of my colleagues, I don't understand how you can keep repeating it as if I don't exist.

That settles it. You are middle management in Florida. That totally proves there are no poor people in America. That also disproves that people enlist mostly due to economic difficulties. I guess the big recruiting offices in poor cities are coincidence. Logic like this and some people say a community college degree is worthless. I guess you showed them!

I'm sorry you are uncomfortable with the fact that our or any other military consists mostly of people with no choices economically. Do you really think the poor black kid from Detroit over in Iraq at this writing gives a crap about any of this military history? No, he didn't want to starve or end up in prison. It's reality.

Trust me I wish the military was like the movies make it out to be. I really do, however, that is not the case. I'm not going to lie for them and keep the propaganda flowing.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Flamingboat

That settles it. You are middle management in Florida. That totally proves there are no poor people in America. That also disproves that people enlist mostly due to economic difficulties. I guess the big recruiting offices in poor cities are coincidence. Logic like this and some people say a community college degree is worthless. I guess you showed them!

I never set out to disprove the existence of poor people. My posts have been in direct contradiction to your repeated claims that if you're not rich in America you're screwed.

Shortly after I was born on the naval base, my parents moved to a suburb of Detroit and my dad welded bumpers on cars at the Ford plant til I was about 5, we lived in a mobile home.

Everyone has opportunities... I can't fill out the paperwork and do the homework for them. If you have the will to succeed, you certainly can.

I'm sorry that your experience in the US Infantry didn't pan out like the movies. Although, that movie Jarhead, or Blackhawk Down, or any of the WWII or Vietnam movies of the last decade, don't exactly strike me as big recruitment drivers. The movies I've seen suggest the infantry is a very dangerous and perhaps even depressing place to be.

What would you define as a reasonable household income to not be screwed?