LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes

[OKO]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

This all sounds great to me, except for what you told me about the wire lengths. Since the proposed mod measures the distance from the launch point, a sub that is running will get a few extra miles of guidance, and a sub following the torp or resteering it at a nearby target will get ripped off.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I heard that wire is not only unrolling from the torpedo, but also from the submarine, to avoid the wire to be cut too easily with sub manoeuvers.
The 10-13 miles of torpedo wire shouldn't be affected, in this case, by sub runs.

All modifications mentionned looks fantastic !

But anyone could give an explanation why non electrical torps run slower at high depth, please ?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Deathblow

As far as removing the ADCAP snake. One thing that will complicate this is that the lack of a snaking movement is the only way a player knows that his torpedoes are homing on something. Otherwise we really can't tell what the torps are doing because they don't have wirefeedback as in RL (due to it being bugged toward a cheat). If the ADCAP doesn't snake it will probably cause more problems than worth it.

As far advanced wire control. This could be tricky dependent on how cumbersome the command inputs would become.

SCX removed the snake, and it was still easy to tell if your torp picked up something...because it turned. (and even if the target was on the exact same heading you can still check to see if its acquired by ordering the torp to turn; if it doesn't, it has a target.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Henson

In response to the question about how the wire plays out from the tube IRL, it works as follows. The torpedo itself has a certain amount of guidance wire internal to the weapon, and inside the tube is a guidance wire dispenser with about 1/2 the amount of what is in the torpedo fuel tank.

After launch, once the wire achieves 'equilibrium' the torpedo will feed out as much wire as necessary to account for its own motion, and the wire dispenser in the tube will pay out enough to account for O/S motion. In theory the center of the wire is stationary. The reason there is less wire in the tube than there is in the torpedo fuel tank is the fact that the torpedo moves at roughly twice the speed O/S does.

Thanks for the info. You seem to know how this works better than anyone else so far.

Do you think that it's a fair approximation of reality to model the wire break as occuring after an absolute distance traveled by the torpedo, without accounting for the relative distance between the sub and torp?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Deathblow

As far as removing the ADCAP snake. One thing that will complicate this is that the lack of a snaking movement is the only way a player knows that his torpedoes are homing on something. Otherwise we really can't tell what the torps are doing because they don't have wirefeedback as in RL (due to it being bugged toward a cheat). If the ADCAP doesn't snake it will probably cause more problems than worth it.

Is it possible to have the snake search optional? That way, if you want a straight-running (therefore faster) torpedo, you can use it and a slower torpedo with a greater area searched, you have that too? The more options you have with torpedoes, the better, I think. It makes them much more interesting to experiment with tactically. I'd like being able to switch between a snake searcher, a circle searcher, and a straight runner.

[WolfyBrandon]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Is it possible to have the snake search optional? That way, if you want a straight-running (therefore faster) torpedo, you can use it and a slower torpedo with a greater area searched, you have that too? The more options you have with torpedoes, the better, I think. It makes them much more interesting to experiment with tactically. I'd like being able to switch between a snake searcher, a circle searcher, and a straight runner.

I agree, would be nice to have both optional.

Wolfy

[Bellman]

I voted for ''Advanced Wire Control: the ability to change speed, acoustic mode, search pattern,
and depth for wire guided torpedoes. ' Those of us wanting the changed 'search pattern' element could well
have put the weight of voting in Advanced Wire Control. But all the main feature headings are highly desirable. :|\

I hope polling for a choice doesnt mean that some of the proposed features are not able to coexist ? :hmm:
Must a choice be made from a 'menu' or can we be greedy and say '' Bring it all on.'' Improved physics and advanced
wire control are not mutualy exclusive are they ? Both would be fantastic !

A truly exciting prospect !

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I'd like to have all of them, but whatever you add, I think the important thing is that it WORKS.

People want improvements, but they'd hate them if the improvement had too many quirks. See v1.03's new hydrodynamic model to see that in action.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I'd like to have all of them, but whatever you add, I think the important thing is that it WORKS.

People want improvements, but they'd hate them if the improvement had too many quirks. See v1.03's new hydrodynamic model to see that in action.

Exactly.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

SCX removed the snake, and it was still easy to tell if your torp picked up something...because it turned. (and even if the target was on the exact same heading you can still check to see if its acquired by ordering the torp to turn; if it doesn't, it has a target.

Doesn't seem worth it really, what's the real benifit? Adds a bit more micromanagement to decipher the state of ones own torps without much gained from the changes.

[Molon Labe]

Increased effective range and closing speed, probably realism as well.

[LuftWolf]

Couple of quick points:

1) Has LWAMI ever contained any halfassed garbage? :hmm: No. So of course whatever is in the mod will work, that's my problem. You guys just tell me what would be ideal, and we'll give you the best we can do.

2) Yes, theoretically I can have all the modes on the ADCAP you want, but of course has to be balanced out with playability. Yes, I can have a mode on the ADCAP where it uses its sonar in single beam mode to give the sensor some extra power and a mode where it uses its full frontal aspect homing sonar on a snake pattern for extra area coverage, as well as a circle reattack, both automatic and wire controlled. The only thing I can't see a way to do at this point is under-keel detonations causing extra damage, because of the way the damage model is limited in DW (farther away means less damage, even if that "farther away" is accounted for in depth under keel), but I'll seriously look into it.

Keep in mind, doing advanced features on a single weapon takes a great deal of time. So we'll see what we can accomplish.

Now for the GREAT news!

I have found out a way to reference the launching platform of a wireguided torpedo using some trick sensor and doctrine finagleing.

The long and the short of it is that I have the full status-referencing capabilities of the doctrines now to determine if wires will break or not (I can even introduce small random factors so players can't make exact calculations on when or when their wires will break, only know generally).

Ok, so now the question is, when should torpedo wires break? :hmm:

Right now I am working with a set range as mentioned above as well as having the doctrine monitor closeing and opening speed... if the opening speed gets too high (around 70 kts), the wire will break.

Ok, everyone who has ever wanted to contribute to a discussion of when wires should break in DW, with the idea that this will actually be implimented sometime in the next 20 years, this is your chance. Let me have it... now!

Cheers,
David

PS Deathblow, no I don't see how I will be able to have the audio warning, since that is coded in the interface .dll's. Also, just for fair warning, you will probably still be able to shutdown the torpedo even after the wire has been cut, but all the other commands will be disabled... I will try hard to get rid of this, but no promises. All in all, I think the advantage of doing this far outweighs those two concerns.

PPS Thank you Henson for explaning how torpedo wires are spooled and out rigged.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I have found out a way to reference the launching platform of a wireguided torpedo using some trick sensor and doctrine finagleing.

... :hmm: ... :|\

You made a sensor that will detect the launching platform and recognize it as such?! Please tell, how did you accomplish this?

[Henson]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Thanks for the info. You seem to know how this works better than anyone else so far.

Do you think that it's a fair approximation of reality to model the wire break as occuring after an absolute distance traveled by the torpedo, without accounting for the relative distance between the sub and torp?

I just spent a week teaching ADCAPs to a boat that has been shooting old MK48s up until now. You just happened to catch me at a good time.

I would say that the model you suggested is closest to reality. It doesn't neccessarily matter how far apart the weapon and O/S are. If the distance traveled by the two is longer than the wire it will probably break. Of course there's a little bit of play in that, and wires can (and do) break before that point. Another thing that causes wire loss is that the signal degrades to the point where there is no more good electrical continuity. We actually track the amount of electricity running across an open guidance wire in the fire control system. We used to have a hell of a problem with the wire getting caught in the screw as well, but that has been fixed for years.

Unfortunately I don't think I can tell you how much wire there is. I'll check on it, but better safe then sorry. Lets just say that with current realities and tactics, you should lose the wire becuse of a detonation well before you lose it because you ran the weapon too long.

[Molon Labe]

Thanks for the reply.

About the total distance travelled by both the ship and torp mattering more than the distance between the ship and torp...does that hold true if the boat is travelling in the same direction as the weapon, and what if the torp was turned around to reattack a target and is closing range with the launching boat instead of opening?

Also, since we might be getting other wire breaks modeled, is there a limit to the turn rate, ship speed, or relative course that can't be exceeded without cutting the wire? (probably asking for too much, but I thought I'd try)

[LuftWolf]

I gave the wireguided torpedoes an all-aspect visual sensor that is capable of tracking everything within about 15nm.

When the torpedo is fired, it detects the launching platform immediately and a special doctrine is called which tracks the launching platform. A variable switch and numerous parameter checks are implimented to make sure that special target doctrine gets assigned ONLY to the launching platform (this is done reliably). Also, the rest of the doctrine has been altered to make absolutely sure the input from the visual sensor is ignored completely so it doesn't interfere with other functions of the torpedo.

The special doctrine uses normal doctrine commands to monitor the status of the launching platform relative to the torpedo. When the conditions that allow the wire to break are reached, the monitoring doctrine sends a command to the main torpedo doctrine to change a variable from 0 to 1, and the wire commands are disabled.

This last part of the mechanism is the key... being able to have a target doctrine that monitors the launching platform and can also refer back to the main torpedo doctrine and change a variable. The last part is done with the SetEntVar command, which is not used in any stock SC, SCX, or stock DW doctrines that I can find... its only a minor note in a document relating to the SC doctrine interpreter published by SCS and edited by jsteed, and it took AGES to figure out how it worked in DW.

But it works now, and all this is quite reliable.

So the question remains: when should torpedo wires break in DW? :hmm:

PS Henson... the info that Amizaur has places the length of the ADCAP wires at 10nm... I take it from what you said, that is too short. Perhaps that data he had was for a single spool... meaning the total range might by closer to 20nm? I know you might not be able to answer that directly, but is 10nm *way* too short?

How the heck thin is that wire anyway???