But I was told the free market brought me the best product at the cheapest price!!

[Freiwillige]

Well we could have great internet too if we had a foreign nation giving us Billions a year in subsidies.

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Explained from a realist prespective, though you forgot Capitalism

Touche!

I guess I should try to address that. Capitalism is also bad? Damn he's got me.

That is what I call underestimating my opponent. Oh well a little pie in the face helps keep you grounded.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Nazism, Communism, Socialism, colonialism.....here is a clue, If the word ends in ISM chances are its bad as history has shown. I prefer Freedom <-no ISM.

Oh and that also includes Imperialism.

America will stand up to the enemies of Freedomism!

(Damn, I thought I just made up a cool new word but just discovered someone beat me already to "Freedomism"...)

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Nazism, Communism, Socialism, colonialism.....here is a clue, If the word ends in ISM chances are its bad as history has shown. I prefer Freedom <-no ISM.

Oh and that also includes Imperialism.

Freiwillige, I usually respect your opinion, though we also often have different points of view, but this time you went too far.

I can never, ever understand the hate against magnetism!
Do you know how magnets were mocked, burned, prosecuted over the course of the time?
Shame on all you anti-magnetism people!

When the last magnet has been demagnetized, you will find that you can't lift your keys out of the drain with a piece of wood!

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Freiwillige, I usually respect your opinion, though we also often have different points of view, but this time you went too far.

I can never, ever understand the hate against magnetism!
Do you know how magnets were mocked, burned, prosecuted over the course of the time?
Shame on all you anti-magnetism people!

When the last magnet has been demagnetized, you will find that you can't lift your keys out of the drain with a piece of wood!

Yes your right of course Magnetism is a good thing, My apologies if I offended you friend.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Freiwillige, I usually respect your opinion, though we also often have different points of view, but this time you went too far.

I can never, ever understand the hate against magnetism!
Do you know how magnets were mocked, burned, prosecuted over the course of the time?
Shame on all you anti-magnetism people!

When the last magnet has been demagnetized, you will find that you can't lift your keys out of the drain with a piece of wood!

Not only that but I heard that he is against Animism, Atticism, Anglicism, Altruism, Autoeroticism, Athleticism and that's just the 'A's!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Paging Dr. UnderseaLcpl, Dr. UnderseaLcpl, please meet your party at the front desk.

I'm here.....I'm here. What seems to be the problem? South Korea is implementing a forward-thinking attitude to internet speed, connectivity, and bandwidth? And they are ahead of us? Troubling.

Diagnosis: Though it is not unknown for the occassional government program in some nation, somewhere, to get something right, time will tell as to whether this is a wise move on the part of the S. Korean government.

Remember when Japan thought subsidizing robotics would be a great idea? They developed a lot of fascinating innovations in the field, but look where it got them as a nation. Now they are struggling to stay competitive against other Asian markets that weren't quite so enlightened but had a more practical attitude.

Now, look where their efforts got us. Nice tech at bargain prices with relatively little effort on our part because there is never any demand for what they develop when they develop it. They paid for their attempt to bypass the natural progression of free exchange in more ways than one. Worse, they paid for it as a nation because it was a national initiative. What should have been an impressive series of market triumphs was cut tragically short by something as simple as basic supply and demand. The case for state foresight in new industries has already been made.

On to the US part of the equation. There was a time, not so long ago, when the US government still thought it was their onus to facilitate telecommunications. Anyone alive at the time will remember what a spectacular failure that was. The "deregulation"(read: limited, licensed, privatization with heavy regulation) of telecommunications led to a worldwide revolution in digital communications. The effect was so profound that we now have debates over the tremendous availability of data, whether it is to children or the quality of information or the ability and need of the average citizen to utilize it. The case for privatization, in any capacity, is already made.

So how does this all tie together? Well, what we're essentially looking at here, given the heavy regulation of US telecom industries under the FCC and the telecommuncications act of 1996, which was supposedly deregulatory but managed to somehow add nearly 10,000 pages of regulation to the registrar, is a match between a state initiative and a state intitiative. To put it simply, the US set a bar on what telecom industries could do, and South Korea has directed state resources at raising the bar, possibly without regard to the consequences. Perhaps they will be successful, or perhaps they will end up the victim of yet another unintended result of cramming people's own money down their throats in the name of a supposedly greater good.

Prescription: Remove taxes, spurious regulations, and subsidies for US business of any type (or at least anything that was lobbied for) and actually force them to compete by removing state trade barriers. It will cure what ails you. Side-effects may include complaining special interests and unemployed, politically-inclined rhetoriticians.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I'm here.....I'm here. What seems to be the problem? South Korea is implementing a forward-thinking attitude to internet speed, connectivity, and bandwidth? And they are ahead of us? Troubling.

Diagnosis: Though it is not unknown for the occassional government program in some nation, somewhere, to get something right, time will tell as to whether this is a wise move on the part of the S. Korean government.

Remember when Japan thought subsidizing robotics would be a great idea? They developed a lot of fascinating innovations in the field, but look where it got them as a nation. Now they are struggling to stay competitive against other Asian markets that weren't quite so enlightened but had a more practical attitude.

Now, look where their efforts got us. Nice tech at bargain prices with relatively little effort on our part because there is never any demand for what they develop when they develop it. They paid for their attempt to bypass the natural progression of free exchange in more ways than one. Worse, they paid for it as a nation because it was a national initiative. What should have been an impressive series of market triumphs was cut tragically short by something as simple as basic supply and demand. The case for state foresight in new industries has already been made.

On to the US part of the equation. There was a time, not so long ago, when the US government still thought it was their onus to facilitate telecommunications. Anyone alive at the time will remember what a spectacular failure that was. The "deregulation"(read: limited, licensed, privatization with heavy regulation) of telecommunications led to a worldwide revolution in digital communications. The effect was so profound that we now have debates over the tremendous availability of data, whether it is to children or the quality of information or the ability and need of the average citizen to utilize it. The case for privatization, in any capacity, is already made.

So how does this all tie together? Well, what we're essentially looking at here, given the heavy regulation of US telecom industries under the FCC and the telecommuncications act of 1996, which was supposedly deregulatory but managed to somehow add nearly 10,000 pages of regulation to the registrar, is a match between a state initiative and a state intitiative. To put it simply, the US set a bar on what telecom industries could do, and South Korea has directed state resources at raising the bar, possibly without regard to the consequences. Perhaps they will be successful, or perhaps they will end up the victim of yet another unintended result of cramming people's own money down their throats in the name of a supposedly greater good.

Prescription: Remove taxes, spurious regulations, and subsidies for US business of any type (or at least anything that was lobbied for) and actually force them to compete by removing state trade barriers. It will cure what ails you. Side-effects may include complaining special interests and unemployed, politically-inclined rhetoriticians.

Interesting post. However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis, and when the IMF told Argentina to privatize they're assets, it destroyed that economy as well, completely. Riots were in the streets everywhere, though there was a positive side effect. Workers occupied the factories and to this day continue to do so. Along with special interests and imperialist propagandists; I don't think you will have any luck against those interests unless there is revolution. And USA literally has a lot of work to do.

You need to wipe out your congress, and start over. I recommend having public control over decisions, and regulations. The economic mistake USA made is letting its MNC's run like wild animals raping the world's resources, getting bigger and bigger, until the government politicians want to get the regulation back and introduce all these bureaucratic measures. This turns into corporatism or fascism, as your government only serves corporate interests. There needs to be a mass popular uprising of Americans to take control of these largest institutions because they are the one's destroying your country. Thats my take, but I think its to late, as the military industry, banks, IMF etc have all the control, and your country will go bankrupt with 15 trillion in debt owing to China. Corporate America will profit from it, because they'll just buy Every asset out there, probably wiping out small businesses, and the middle class will suffer. Of course that also brings the chance for Revolution

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Interesting post. However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis

You do realize that Reaganomics were a success not a failure. He inherited a depression and left office with the economy in a boom. Now how is that a failure?

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

You do realize that Reaganomics were a success not a failure. He inherited a depression and left office with the economy in a boom. Now how is that a failure?

Are you serious? And left economy in a boom... Okay for corporate America and the imperialist elite it was great. But what about all the spending, putting your country in its biggest debt "investing" in the war machine. Or funding/training the terrorists in Nicaragua. That all costs money no? I bit of Irony no?
I gotta say though its amazing how the right wing middle class will actually go rally to fight against they're own interests

It doesn't take a socialist to see the failures of Regan. Did the exact opposite of what "freedom's" is. Anyone on the so called "left" in america would agree with me here.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

You do realize that Reaganomics were a success not a failure. He inherited a depression and left office with the economy in a boom. Now how is that a failure?

A success for who? The income gap between the ultra rich and everyone else in America widened. Wages for the average worker went down. Welfare rolls grew. The nation’s homeownership rate fell. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's wealth trickling down.

Forgive me for breaking out one of my all time favorites:

[flatsixes]

Yeah, man. Eat the rich!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Interesting post.

Thanks Most of my posts are either lengthy or bad jokes or both, so it's nice to be interesting.

However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis, and when the IMF told Argentina to privatize their assets, it destroyed that economy as well, completely.

Ah, I see the problem here. You're operating under the classic assumption that manufacturing is in and of itself a good thing. That's an attitude typical of supporters of socialist agendas. I don't mean to be condescending by saying that, I just lack the vernacular to make the point clear and succinct in a polite fashion. The best I can do as a former leftist myself is to explain why I have drawn the conclusions I have and let you make your own judgements. Someone did that for me, once.

First, I'd like you to ask yourself why it is that you believe that manufacturing is a critical component of the workers' well-being. Is it because manufacturing is important to self-sufficiency? Is it because controlling the means of production will empower the workers? Is it because the capitalists are standing on the backs of the less-fortunate and greedily gobbiling up a disproportionate share of the world's wealth? Or do you just think capitalism is inefficient? Personally, I subscribed to the school of thought that focused upon income disparity; in fact, the wealth gap still bothers me, but what are your reasons? Odds are they include at least one of the above and that they are reasonable opinions.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't quite work that way. Let's begin with your Reagan example. I'm not a fan of the guy, myself, but for different reasons. You claim that he destroyed the US manufacturing base. Let's just assume that's true so we don't get bogged down. What happened after that? The US economy grew more powerful. In fact, just a few years later, under a Republican congress, the US economy experienced unprecedented growth, mostly in sectors that were deregulated or minimally-regulated to begin with. Median income went up. The standard of living went up. There were more goods and they were more readily available than they had been in the years preceding Reagan. Clearly, the manufacturing sector is not integral to prosperity.

Now, let's put a hypothetical President X in Reagan's place. We'll give him fiat power over industry and assume that he has the plight of the workers at heart. He focuses upon manufacturing jobs and ensures the workers are well-paid and cared-for. He also makes sure that CEOs don't make too much. Disregarding the complete lack of motivation that being unconditionally provided-for often engenders, we now we have legions of prosperous, united, empowered workers and citizens toiling away and showing the capitalists how it's done. There's just one small problem: Who is going to buy their goods, read "pay for all that"? I'm curious to know how you'd fix that problem.

US manufacturing, in the sense that you mean it, died because the standard of living in the US began to exceed the income that producing and selling a finished product could provide. It didn't disappear, it just changed into something else, as befit the needs of the market.

The manufacturing that you refer to remains, at great public expense, because people like you do not see that they're being had by the workers themselves, and their bosses. Socialism necessitates government, and government necessitates power. Who do you think is going to get that power? The people? How much time and effort are you prepared to invest in ensuring that widget-makers are being treated fairly? The widget-makers have all the time and effort in the world to invest in making their case, especially when they have a right to the fruits of your labor, and vice-versa. Lawmakers generally have very little experience in the widget market or yours, and you'd trust them to make decisions for you? Are we putting 2 and 2 together yet?

Like it or not, the world is not a fair place. I'm sure you have some great idea for social equality, but the fact of the matter is that you are not smarter than everyone else, and everyone else is not as fair-minded as you. They will figure out a way to co-opt any kind of socialist system, no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is free-market exchange, where the choice rests with the consumer, as do the benefits.

Riots were in the streets everywhere, though there was a positive side effect. Workers occupied the factories and to this day continue to do so.

And Argentina is still a crappy place to live to this day. Glad it's working out for them. The IMF is little better than a government when it comes to policymaking.

Along with special interests and imperialist propagandists; I don't think you will have any luck against those interests unless there is revolution. And USA literally has a lot of work to do.

I agree with everything except for the "imperialists" part. That's socialist for "winning" and ignores the issue. I can see how some would view the US as imperialists because we don't play fair when it comes to free trade, impeding or promoting the trade of other nations as our special interests or people see fit, but complaining about it or mislabeling it doesn't help illustrate the problem.

You need to wipe out your congress, and start over. I recommend having public control over decisions, and regulations.

Are you insane? We can't even achieve anything remotely resembling a consensus on this forum, let alone in a nation of 300-something million people, and none of us have our livleyhoods tied up in this venue.

Furthermore, how can you complain about special interests and then promote public rule and regulation? How do you think we got special interests in the first place? Remember, this country is supposedly governed by ironclad constitutional law. The only limiting factor on people with a common interest getting together is the constitution, and look what's happened to it so far!

The economic mistake USA made is letting its MNC's run like wild animals raping the world's resources, getting bigger and bigger, until the government politicians want to get the regulation back and introduce all these bureaucratic measures. This turns into corporatism or fascism, as your government only serves corporate interests.

Again, you know this, but you somehow still advocate popular rule. Who do you think corporations are comprised of? I said before that you'd been had, this is a perfect example of just how badly. You're not standing up for workers rights, you're just supporting another special interest. Worse, you're actually making it easier for special interests by removing the whole "constitutional law" thing.

There needs to be a mass popular uprising of Americans to take control of these largest institutions because they are the one's destroying your country. Thats my take, but I think its to late, as the military industry, banks, IMF etc have all the control, and your country will go bankrupt with 15 trillion in debt owing to China.

Oh? And who did that? Was it private industry, operating at a profit by exchanging goods or services for capital? Or was it the people's government?

Corporate America will profit from it, because they'll just buy Every asset out there, probably wiping out small businesses, and the middle class will suffer. Of course that also brings the chance for Revolution

Forgive me, but I'm not going into this at the moment. I think I've said everything you need to hear. Again, I apologize if any of it comes across as brusque, it's just my way of speaking. If we were to discuss it face-to-face, I'm sure you wouldn't find my tone disagreeable.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Thanks Most of my posts are either lengthy or bad jokes or both, so it's nice to be interesting.

Too lengthy for me and though I'm not quite the intellectual as you, the world does not buy the corporate imperialist propaganda and what this establishment plans to force upon them.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/te...ref=technology

Prediction: "But!! But!! South Korea is so much more urban than the U.S.!!!" will be said..

just wondering by any chance are you a trotskyist?