Has anybody seen this........

[Sailor Steve]

@ Subman1: The Russian tests show what happens when you're flying an unfamiliar aircraft. The same thing happened when the Americans recovered an intact Mitsubishi Zero in Alaska. Our pilots were not sure of the aircraft's capabilities, and so didn't fly it to its limits. The result was an official claim that a Corsair could stay with the Zero in a flat turn! And that one we know to be way off base.

@ Morts: The real numbers are even worse than you think.

Highest scoring US ace in Europe: Francis Gabreski, in a P-47, 31 kills.

Highest scoring Mustang ace: George Preddy, 27-1/2 kills. He was the third-highest US ace in Europe and 7th overall.

Highest scoring ace ever: Erich Hartmann, in a series of Bf-109s, 352 kills.

There were 105 German aces with 100 kills or more, and at least half of them flew Bf-109s.

The fact is that in this case there is no 'best'. Adolph Galland, German General of Fighters, himself holding more 104 kills, stated that the reason the Germans held such high scores was that the Allies rotated their pilots out to teach the new guys what was what, while the German pilots "flew until they were killed". On the whole, over any equal period of time, every country's pilots' scores were about equal, and so were the planes they flew.

Technology doesn't remain secret for long, and everybody made up slack as time went on. The P-51D and Bf-109G-10 and K models were about equal in every combat respect, as were the very late-war Japanese, British and Russian planes.

[SUBMAN1]

Morts - check the facts as to why. Classic case of comparing apples and oranges, though I know you like doing that to try an make a point since you do it every time you enter a thread. Also, why don't you look at how many times these so called 'aces' were shot down! Hahahaha! :p

SS - You are missing the above as well - no left turns and crappy visibility. That is a massive disadvantage to the Germans, even if other things were equal (which they weren't if you bother to read up on Y29). Roll rate on a 109 is terrible with all the cannon in the wing as well, so I am not getting where you claim it was better? Show me that.

Even if the P-51 can't roll quite as fast, it definitly had a greater degrees per second in a turn.

Stealth is based around the concepts of WWII. The ME109 frequently never saw the plane that downed him. This lesson translates all the way to today in our F-22. This is the very thinking as to why the F-22 is the way it is.

-S

[Morts]

subman, fact still remains that they downed more planes than american
and besides..in 43/44 alot of the german pilots where rookies with little to no experience...so a somewhat experienced american pilot is able to down a rookie in a 109? wow i must say..that makes it the best ever (not)
sure, german aces where shot down..but hey..so where american?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Morts

subman, fact still remains that they downed more planes than american
and besides..in 43/44 alot of the german pilots where rookies with little to no experience...so a somewhat experienced american pilot is able to down a rookie in a 109? wow i must say..that makes it the best ever (not)
sure, german aces where shot down..but hey..so where american?

Apples and oranges. We are talking about the plane too, not the pilots. So where do you get off bringing in the pilots that got shot down so many times that they probably only got off lucky shots most days?

-S

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Morts - check the facts as to why. Classic case of comparing apples and oranges, though I know you like doing that to try an make a point since you do it every time you enter a thread. Also, why don't you look at how many times these so called 'aces' were shot down! Hahahaha! :p

Why is it you do the very same things you accuse others of doing? 'Making points' and being right seem to be all you ever want to do. No real discussion, just "I'm right and you're stupid."

SS - You are missing the above as well - no left turns and crappy visibility. That is a massive disadvantage to the Germans, even if other things were equal (which they weren't if you bother to read up on Y29). Roll rate on a 109 is terrible with all the cannon in the wing as well, so I am not getting where you claim it was better? Show me that.

Even if the P-51 can't roll quite as fast, it definitly had a greater degrees per second in a turn.

If you're going to make a claim like that, you should give the actual 'degrees-per-second' numbers. You keep making slams like "if you bother to read up on...", but you ignore the overall numbers.

The roll rate was terrible with the cannons, which was why the 'R6' models were rare, and got dumped as soon as they could manage it. The stock '109 rolled almost twice as fast as a Mustang, and the turn rates were actually about equal. You sound like the P-40 pilot who was quoted saying "I don't see what the hubbub is about. I never met a Zero that could out-turn me!"

Stealth is based around the concepts of WWII. The ME109 frequently never saw the plane that downed him.

That's true of 90% of all the pilots ever shot down in any war. The German designers recognized the deficiencies of their early canopies, which is why the Bf-109G-10 and K models had the much-improved 'Erla Haube', sometimes called the 'Galland Hood'.

Citing one battle over and over doesn't prove anything. The fact remains that overall, the scores of pilots from every country were, mission-for-mission, about equal. Either the German pilots were so much better that they could overcome the inequality of inferior aircraft, or the planes were, indeed, roughly equal.

[stabiz]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

No real discussion, just "I'm right and you're stupid."

Without reading up on it, I would say this goes for 99% of Submans posts.

[I-25]

Originally Posted by stabiz

Without reading up on it, I would say this goes for 99% of Submans posts.

:rotfl::rotfl:

[Q3ark]

Wow this thread stayed on topic for all of seven posts .

I have done quite a bit of reading on their site http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Pilot.htm and the replica's appear to handle quite nicely. Obviously they don't have the speed of an original spit but to my knowlege nobody makes merlin engines any more.

[kurtz]

Seems some people can get hold of them.

http://www.practicalperformancecar.c...etail.asp?id=4

I had an SD1 with the 2.6 engine and that was entertaining enough. Eventually Frau Kurtz parked it halfway up a tree

[Morts]

Originally Posted by stabiz

Without reading up on it, I would say this goes for 99% of Submans posts.

yup:rotfl:

[Fincuan]

I may be a bit late to the discussion(sorry, couldn't find it from amongst all the election "debate" threads), but here's a site for anyone interested in the tested performance of said fighters: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org
The site also houses plenty of combat reports.

Have fun, there should be enough reading for a few days

[bookworm_020]

Back to topic

I saw a couple of the scaled versions at an airshow a couple of years ago and saw them in the air as well, they sound like the real thing when they put the throttle down!

They are also alot cheaper to buy, easier to maintain, and use a heck of lot less fuel that a full size warbird (pretty clear to all, but just had to point it out)

Now if I can getmine with hardpoints and working guns, I'll buy....

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

Now if I can getmine with hardpoints and working guns, I'll buy....

Cool, then you can go strafing the neighbours gardens and blast their gnomes to shreds!

[August]

The P-51 is the fighter that won the war. Fakt.

[Morts]

not really
US/Brit bombers would still have reduced germany to rubble just with a few more losses
id say the hurricane and spittys did more to help win the war than the P-51