Fleeing the Nazis

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Make them run back to where they came

errrr....That would be where you are.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Letum

errrr....That would be where you are.

A lot come from the UK unfortunately....met a few in my time.

Some actually seriously believe what's in their heads and minds.

No problem with that....it only becomes problematic when they try to impose their beliefs on others.

[Skybird]

I do not wish to bash america here, but international polices agrees that the biggest Nazi community is to be found in America - not Germany, not England, not Italy. Also, international financing of Nazi actiivities in various countries is controlled and dominated by american Nazi networks. Additionally, there is the English-founded network of Nazi-bands named Blood and Honour, coordinating and bringing together Nazi bands from many countries, which also plays a role in international nazism that leads beyond just Nazi music and Nazi bands.

However, my remark before was meant in not that specific historic context - and Letum knows that. If he ever dares to really play me in chess, he will pay the price for this impertinent interference.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Zero tolerance for Nazis, always, everywhere.

Zero tolerance you say, what exactly do you mean by that?

[DeepIron]

I do not wish to bash america here, but international polices agrees that the biggest Nazi community is to be found in America...

It's that "right to freedom of speech" thing again...

That, and there just a lot more room to hide in around here...

[joea]

I'm pretty sure some of those guys have posted on here or other forums I frequent. No worries, no one I on this thread or among the "stars" of subsim but still.

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I do not wish to bash america here, but international polices agrees that the biggest Nazi community is to be found in America - not Germany, not England, not Italy.

Would that be in sheer numbers or as a percentage of total population?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

It's that "right to freedom of speech" thing again...

You see, in America we grant civil rights even to people we disagree with.

The commitment to freedom is not measured in how the majority is treated, but in how the minority is treated.

[DeepIron]

Originally Posted by Platapus

You see, in America we grant civil rights even to people we disagree with.

The commitment to freedom is not measured in how the majority is treated, but in how the minority is treated.

Actually I'm more pragmatic: let them talk lest they get the ACLU involved...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

It's that "right to freedom of speech" thing again...

That, and there just a lot more room to hide in around here...

hitler's fans I exclude from that right. Like I exlcude everybody from rights that he claims for himself but does not accept to allow for others. To assassinate hitler also would have denied him the right of free speech. and still it would have been a morally good deed to do so.

Freedoms and rights you only deserve to the degree you give them back and allow them for others. there it is again, the word I learned to like so much: reciprocity. Nobody has only rights, but no duties. the way you fill your duties and responsibilities decide to what degree rights should be given to you. If you work for the destruction of the constitution, you cannot claim the constitution's protection, if you position yourself outside a code of laws and freedoms, then you are outside of it, and have no right to claim just it's benefits for yourself that at the same time you deny to others. And Nazism is trying to destroy wetsern constitutional orders. Thus it does not deserve the constitution's respect or protection. The same is true for Islam, and any other fundamentalism wether it be of relgious or poltical format that does not correspond with the values expressed in the design of the constitutions.

Every freedom has - and needs - limits. No freedom is unlimited - not as long as you are not the only entity in the universe.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Zero tolerance you say, what exactly do you mean by that?

confront them, drive them back, do not allow them tp spread their poison and drive anchors into society. Let them feel that they are total pariahs.

In Cologne, a civil movement aganst the islamisation of europe and the building of a mosque greater than the dome of cologne has been hijacked by rightwing populists and Nazis. Under the label to defend germany against Islam, they try to spread nazism and give it an acceptable face that the ordinary cit9izen an vote for. that is irnoic, since both Nazism and islam are working for the destruction of our values and the german constitution,a nd thus are more allies than enemies. however, the people in cologne showed this kind of zero tolerance some days ago. They orgnaised oppsoing demonstrations that claimed all grounds and places whwere the rights wnated to march. No baker sold them brwad, no supermarket sold them beer or limonade. No taxi driver accepted to drive the, no bus driver let them aboard. The attenpts to proclame their manifesto where drowned by bands playing them down. nobody tolerated their presence, nobody accepted them to be there, nobody gave them one inch to stand and to breath. Well done! An aliance with Nazi groups is totally unacceptable, even if it is against islam - both are totally unacceptable for our society and it's values on which they are founded. These we need to defend - against both.

http://www.welt.de/politik/article24...s-Problem.html (German)

[SS107.9MHz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

hitler's fans I exclude from that right. Like I exlcude everybody from rights that he claims for himself but does not accept to allow for others. To assassinate hitler also would have denied him the right of free speech. and still it would have been a morally good deed to do so.

Freedoms and rights you only deserve to the degree you give them back and allow them for others. there it is again, the word I learned to like so much: reciprocity. Nobody has only rights, but no duties. the way you fill your duties and responsibilities decide to what degree rights should be given to you. If you work for the destruction of the constitution, you cannot claim the constitution's protection, if you position yourself outside a code of laws and freedoms, then you are outside of it, and have no right to claim just it's benefits for yourself that at the same time you deny to others. And Nazism is trying to destroy wetsern constitutional orders. Thus it does not deserve the constitution's respect or protection. The same is true for Islam, and any other fundamentalism wether it be of relgious or poltical format that does not correspond with the values expressed in the design of the constitutions.

Every freedom has - and needs - limits. No freedom is unlimited - not as long as you are not the only entity in the universe.

Would it? How can a murder be morally equated? Yes maybe the deaths of millions could be spared, or they could not because someone else would take his place... maybe, maybe not, but that implies a moral absolutism I can't agree with.
Killing someone is never about justice or a moral right, that's just one of the reasons why myself am against any kind of death penalty (the other main reason is that as humans we can never have absolute certaintyy our decisions are right) - For instance It does not shock me killing someone in a war, because in war there is no rational of justice, you kill because it's the nature of war, it needs not any justification for what it is.
And about denying their freedom, how can we stand for a free society where we value things like democracy and respect and tolerance for others, if we take exactly the same actions as them if they we're on our position? In that sitation yes, I see a moral right/duty to allow them or a crtain degree of freedom... but to prevent or heavily punish them if they should ever cross the line that interfers with the sake of ther citizens... Of course it's hard to draw that line, but that's what society and law are there for

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

confront them, drive them back, do not allow them tp spread their poison and drive anchors into society. Let them feel that they are total pariahs.

In Cologne, a civil movement aganst the islamisation of europe and the building of a mosque greater than the dome of cologne has been hijacked by rightwing populists and Nazis. Under the label to defend germany against Islam, they try to spread nazism and give it an acceptable face that the ordinary cit9izen an vote for. that is irnoic, since both Nazism and islam are working for the destruction of our values and the german constitution,a nd thus are more allies than enemies. however, the people in cologne showed this kind of zero tolerance some days ago. They orgnaised oppsoing demonstrations that claimed all grounds and places whwere the rights wnated to march. No baker sold them brwad, no supermarket sold them beer or limonade. No taxi driver accepted to drive the, no bus driver let them aboard. The attenpts to proclame their manifesto where drowned by bands playing them down. nobody tolerated their presence, nobody accepted them to be there, nobody gave them one inch to stand and to breath. Well done! An aliance with Nazi groups is totally unacceptable, even if it is against islam - both are totally unacceptable for our society and it's values on which they are founded. These we need to defend - against both.

http://www.welt.de/politik/article24...s-Problem.html (German)

I rarely agree with Skybird but he's spot on here. Too much human blood was shed ridding the world of the scourge of nazism to allow it to flourish again.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The commitment to freedom is not measured in how the majority is treated, but in how the minority is treated.

I think I just found my next sig quote.

Originally Posted by Skybird

To assassinate hitler also would have denied him the right of free speech. and still it would have been a morally good deed to do so.

I agree and disagree. Assassinating Hitler may have been a good deed, but not because he spoke out against certain people, or even because he advocated genocide; but because he committed genocide.

I've said in other arguments that you either have freedom or you don't. The American ideal is that we are born free, and freedoms are only to be tampered with in the case of someone who has committed crimes which justify that tampering. Your reciprocity ideal is valid, since, as the old saying goes, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins".

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-commonly attributed to Voltaire, but almost certainly not said by him.
http://www.classroomtools.com/voltaire.htm

But whether or not he said it, equally as certainly an excellent commentary on true liberty. True, there are limitations, such as the famous one against shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, but political speech has to be protected at all costs. I exit with Thomas Paine:
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his own enemy against oppression."

[UnderseaLcpl]

With all the recent talk about Nazis I find myself wondering if there isn't a bigger threat than a highly visible and generally disdained group of extremist hate-fanatics.

Skybird isn't going to like hearing this one bit, but I don't think the subject of nazis and nazism should be so taboo, nor should they be so dreaded.

Why is it that no one recoils in disgust when the Hammer and Sickle are displayed? What about the Rising Sun? Japan commited horrible atrocities against conquered peoples and prisoners of war. And Stalin.....

Well, Stalin leads hitler's death toll by tens of millions. Persecution of Jews? Yup.
maybe not in overall deaths of Jews, but the persecution was there.

Why is he not vilified the same way Hitler is?


Methinks that may have something to do with the fact that he was our ally in ww2. His crimes had to be downplayed greatly in both the U.S. and Britain. And many seemed not to notice that both Churchill and FDR had lambasted him and his communist state in the 1930's.


Nazis are a highly visible threat, so I do not fear them much. But what is not so visible is the threat the state poses in distorting the public perception. Few ever speak of how FDR brought this country closer to dictatorship than it has ever been. To this day he is hailed as a hero by most.

Both Hitler and Stalin, and pretty much every other authoritarian leader ever has relied on controlling the flow of information and distorting it to suit their needs. So should we not be wary of how readily we condemn nazis in popular culture but not others, some of whom were arguably worse? And should we not also be wary of blindly condemning this group or that group when to do so makes our personal freedoms vulnerable? Is it really worth to silence a bunch of people who just make themselves look worse everytime the public eye falls upon them?

Hating Nazis is all good fun, but the real threats lay elsewhere. :hmm: