'Seawolves' contains Mods by...

[Wulfmann]

Still trying to stay in the very lonely middle.

Let me see if I have this right.

1; X-1 announced it was removing any mod it did not get permission to use.

2; Many still feel upset regarding X-1 because there were mods originally intended to be used and even though they now will not be; they are still upset, understandable but, refer to number 1

3; I keep hearing that X-1 is a small poor company so I am assuming all agree this is not Siemens or Krupp backed German industrialist looking to crush the hearts and souls of individual modders and begin a push to take over the world!
One thing being presented that could be viewed as flaming, is the idea X-1 intends to get hold of mods and then use that to sue us all over the world (The modders are, in fact, all over the world.) Refer to your admittance to them being a small poor company and then think about that

4; Many unsuspecting people will buy this and be hurt???? That is not true and a little over the top. I may agree I would not want to, but so many people are afraid to mod and I dare anyone here to say modding has no risk of CTD difficulties. If this mod installs many improvements, that UBI certainly failed correcting, and does so with a self installer allowing the DL challenged to improve their game it provides a good service and if does it without any unauthorized mod, then I fail to see anything but whining for the sake of keeping a negative worm eating fest going. The cost of this mod will be the cost of seeing a movie with a friend so if one gets one weeks good play it has been less entertainment money than War of the Worlds (as compared to War of the Mods)

I may be new to SH3 but I am not new to modding and have spent countless hours helping others work out their problems in FSs.
Many things have been difficult in SH3 for me and most should know that in you have helped me work through them. Trust me here guys. The majority of gamers are not modders and don’t want to be.

Why do you think IL-2 is 10-20-50 times more popular than CFS3. It does not require a degree from MIT to turn a piece of crap from an inferior FS into a vastly superior FS. However, even those that admit to CFS3 superiority also say they want to enjoy the game and not come home from work to work even harder when they can turn on IL-2 and have fun. (Please let this be what it is regarding a comparison with those that would rather not mod and not an IL-2 –CFS3 pissing contest. PM me but have a list of FS credentials regarding aeronautics and an extensive mod history or don’t waste my time with an opinion I don’t care about and I don’t care if you agree with mine)

We are a small group and I again ask for DL numbers of the 5 hottest mods. Why can’t those numbers be posted? Are you afraid they are so low by comparison to the game sold they will prove the X-1 idea a good one?

The modders lobbied and got a ground swell that forced X-1 to react and give in to its demands. Having done that it now seems like you all are looking to expand this to other areas. Is it to keep the war going?

Exactly what do you want X-1 to do? Not make mods? Not use mods they get permission to use?

List your demands for them to see.
X-1 we want you to: Place those demands here. __________________

They will read it and everyone else will as well.

No offence but what was asked for has been achieved and I am at a loss as to what good is now being done by wild speculative legal mumbo jumbo. BTW, the German police do not take kindly to criminal complaints that have no merit. Just a thought, make sure it is a legitimate complaint.
I must be very dumb as I have no idea what that would be.

As one who truly wants the best for this community, I have blatantly stated the above. It is how it looks from the middle, the no man’s land that should not be there.

Wulfmann

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

Let me see if I have this right.

1; X-1 announced it was removing any mod it did not get permission to use.

Past experience has shown X1 to be a tiny bit unscrupulous. If we go by what they've said, more fool us. I go by this maxim: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

2; Many still feel upset regarding X-1 because there were mods originally intended to be used and even though they now will not be; they are still upset, understandable but, refer to number 1

Ignores the possibility that X1 is acting unscrupulously. I refer you to my response to #1.

3; I keep hearing that X-1 is a small poor company so I am assuming all agree this is not Siemens or Krupp backed German industrialist looking to crush the hearts and souls of individual modders and begin a push to take over the world!
One thing being presented that could be viewed as flaming, is the idea X-1 intends to get hold of mods and then use that to sue us all over the world (The modders are, in fact, all over the world.) Refer to your admittance to them being a small poor company and then think about that

I said right away that I was speculating, and I said right away that I don't know the law. But I should remind you of Terrapin's earlier post:

"Aah...going through our 'unread messages' folder I just noticed we got mail from 'Ossi'. He's threatening - in rather bad German - to sue us... "

So do you still claim that I'm flaming by claiming that X1 might be out to sue us? The fact that a representative of X1 has threatened a lawsuit already should speak volumes, but that's just me.

Anyway, my point was that this may have repercussions beyond the superficial, and fear of the unscrupulous use of the law is often more potent than the reality, which may lead to people being unwilling to go against X1's copyright notice. If a mod-maker who was unaware of all this read X1's copyright notice, how would he know that X1 did not have the right to claim copyright on the freeware mods Seewolfe may contain?

4; Many unsuspecting people will buy this and be hurt???? That is not true and a little over the top.

You know for a fact that it's not true? I think you're underestimating the potential for harm. You say you're in the middle, yet you only take X1's arguments into consideration. We can't only look at the best case scenario, because X1 has already proven to be unethical. If X1 publishes mods that are available for free, then people will be financially hurt - cheated in fact. X1 has already shown that it was fully willing to cheat people in this way. It would be naive in the extreme to simply take their word for it at this stage.

I may agree I would not want to, but so many people are afraid to mod and I dare anyone here to say modding has no risk of CTD difficulties.

This is rich, because if one group of mod-makers have a long history of half-assed mods, it is the people behind the Seewolfe add-on. Worldmod (the precursor to Seewolfe) was horribly bug-ridden, to such an extent that I was embarrassed about it - and I had nothing to do with it. That mod reflected poorly on the whole mod community. I have no doubt that Seewolfe will be more bug-ridden than most freeware mods.

Exactly what do you want X-1 to do? Not make mods? Not use mods they get permission to use?

It would be nice if we didn't have to remind them not to use mods they have no right to charge money for. We are still in the position where they say they have 'permission' to use mods - but the fact is that they only have permission to use them in NON-COMMERCIAL mods. If you don't see the problem there, then you have missed some fundamental point.

[Jace11]

Sorry I didn't read all your long winded argument Wolfy.

Er, probably cause for me it isn't a debate anymore. They got caught out, they are deperately trying to make amends by removing the non-authorized content. They lied before, and they continue to hide behind aliases and new accounts etc. Their PR has taken a real knock, god knows how much damage they have done to themselves.

It's their own fault.

They were deceptive about its content, took others work, apparently it hasn't gone GOLD as they said. They said they have permission from people who were never contacted. They hide behind aliases and new accounts and post "I will buy this fantastic product", then post pornography here (that is their managing director!!?!!).

Now you ask us to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Sure Wulfy sure...

Did you get a promise of free copy or something...

[Beery]

Originally Posted by jasonb885

X1 is obviously a very small operation.

There will be no courts involved in this.

Seriously, guys, give it a rest already.

Or is someone here going to step up and retain a lawyer? No? Moving on...

I think you're missing the point. If X1 includes freeware mods, and if they include a copyright notice in their Seewolfe product, that very notice, whether or not it has legal standing, will dissuade modmakers from using freeware mods that they should have every right to use. This is not a case of us needing lawyers. It's a matter of stopping X1 from claiming copyright on material that isn't theirs to claim copyright on.

[Nico71]

Originally Posted by Jace11

Did you get a promise of free copy or something...

There are other ways to get a free copy of it! :rotfl:

[Abraham]

Dear Wulfmann,

I agree on much what you say. You try to find some middle ground, which is fine with me. You are not alone there and I don't think that anyone is flaming at you because of the position you take.

I would also agree that it might be easy for people outside of this comunity (sorry Beery) to have a disk with mods.

But you have to realise a few things.
1. X 1 started with loads of mods that were taken without permission and/or credits from creative people who wanted to do this community a favour.
2. Somebody clearly acting as a 'representative' or 'front man' for X 1 behaved in an unworthy way on this forum (and the UBI forum).
3. This is a matter of principle and respect for our modders and many ithers in the subsim community.
4. Seemingly under pressure from this community Reggie McNeal states that there are no mods in the final release version used without permission.

I think you will agree that a 'theft' of the artistic and creative expressions of our mods was prevented by the vigerous reaction of the community, not by the decency of X 1.
We do not have to state our demands to X 1, like "please do not steal our modders work."
It's them who should apologise...

Since this is a matter of principle and respect numbers of DL's or the size of X 1 are hardly relevant.

By the way: you said you sent them e-mails, if I remember well. Did you get any answers?

I want to have nothing to do with X 1 or its 'representatives' anymore... other than keep an eye on the release version.
I hope this whole matter will be forgotten and this thread can be closed in a week or so...

[Jace11]

I tell you I wouldn't to see Wulfy on a jury. Seems despite evidence and argument, he looks the other way..

[Stormbringer]

I've been away from the board for a bit and come back to this...man!

Reading all of the responses and the reactions on both sides, I'll have to say that I can't support X1, even with their "removal" of other people's products. That they thought to do so without permission in the first place, is enough to motivate me to ignore all of their products - as it shows a temperment of mind I don't care for.

So many people have devoted effort to mods for this game that are outstanding in quality and amazing in dedication. I would find it offensive to support a company financially, which attempts to ride on the shoulders of others who give only for their passion for the game.

[Godalmighty83]

so x1 are going to romove the mods that they dont have permission for are they?

so how much info is going to be on the disc? 5kb?

the fact of the matter is the bulk of the mods used were simply ripped of a download page and stuck on a disc with almost no effort to contact and modders for permission.

x1 still claim that only 2 modders werent contacted despite 11 mods being used without permission.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Godalmighty83

so x1 are going to romove the mods that they dont have permission for are they? ...

The biggest problem now seems to be that X1 appears to be going ahead with their plan to publish 'for profit' what people gave them permission to use 'only as long as it was published as freeware'. X1 is claiming that they have permission to sell these mods, but they do not.

[Wulfmann]

You do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companies

I am not saying those affected should not hold a grudge. As a travel writer I would often joke; "Trust me, I'm a white man". Why, because any person of color needs proof of my intent. (One native Alaskan didn’t get the joke and screamed “No no, that was when all the trouble started!!!�)
X-1 by its actions must act the same. It must earn people’s trust by its future actions
But, IMO you are saying there is no action that can be satisfactory. I have not heard concrete resolution suggestions just flaming.
I do not lame you on this. I just believe you have no realistic end demand
You don't want them to included mods they have permission to use in a CD that would be beneficial to those that buy it. You are either being selfish or insisting people be on your level or should not have the benefit of these improvements in spite of the fact they can be added to the product and not pay anymore than what they already are paying.

I offered to help UBI regarding historical accuracy. They ignored me. They have a serious amount of blatantly wrong things regarding this but even for free would not be bothered to correct them. Real U-boat has also expressed no interest in these historical corrections.
It is amusing you feel you are protecting the non modders by insisting they, in effect not improve their SH3 unless they join in learning to do something they want no part of. You have decided these majority (Prove me wrong with actual numbers) of simmers must do as you or not get these mods, that because of permission, they can get.

Then as I stand in the middle (I will do a 180 and take the same stance with X-1 as I feel I am being helpful to the modders by allowing them to consider a different point of view) and when I don’t tow the party line am accused of getting personal benefit over standing with the party. Those cheap shots expose the weakness of your position and mean you either have not read my position or are calling me a liar. You must now make a statement to me. Are you ignorant or am I in your opinion a liar. It is one or the other (Note; ignorance is a lack of knowledge something I admit to everyday and certainly anytime I ask for someone’s help here)

Let me remind all here. UBI’s SH3 has two sticky post at the top of their forum dedicated to the X-1 add-on.
No one dares comment on that.
Why? Are you getting free DVDs??? LOL

Wulfmann

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

You do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companies

But you do realize that Ubi has originally created the game, and they have access to the source code and can give much more extensive proprietary improvements than X1.

X1, on the other hand, took no part in SHIII's development at any point, nor is there any assurance that whatever money goes to them goes towards supporting SHIII. If anything, it's the opposite. :hmm:

[Abraham]

I really don't know who the "you" is you're addressing in your posting.
Not me, I guess, but who? Beery? Nico71? Jace11? Or the whole community?

Again, nobody has to demand anything from X 1. X 1 acted in an unethical way to say the least, and for many of us that was it, For others it was OSSI's or Deathping's behaviour on this forum.
Any change of mind of X 1 - if it really materialises - is only brought on by pressure from the community

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

You do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companies

If Ubisoft would act like X 1 I would be mad as hell at them. But I bet they would never do that and their position is different. They value the community more than many of us realise!
Don't worry, for me it's the principle and respect that counts, not the size of the perpetrator...

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by Beery

I think you're missing the point. If X1 includes freeware mods, and if they include a copyright notice in their Seewolfe product, that very notice, whether or not it has legal standing, will dissuade modmakers from using freeware mods that they should have every right to use. This is not a case of us needing lawyers. It's a matter of stopping X1 from claiming copyright on material that isn't theirs to claim copyright on.

How would you stop them? Foul language?

The most effective attack is to post the full details of these lunatics, including the full quote attributions which we have of these individuals. (OSSI's porn link in the forum, if it hasn't been deleted, ought to be plenty even.) It ought to plainly demonstrate how two-faced X1 is.

[jasonb885]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

...
I am not saying those affected should not hold a grudge. As a travel writer I would often joke; "Trust me, I'm a white man". Why, because any person of color needs proof of my intent. (One native Alaskan didn’t get the joke and screamed “No no, that was when all the trouble started!!!�)
X-1 by its actions must act the same. It must earn people’s trust by its future actions
But, IMO you are saying there is no action that can be satisfactory.

Quick buck scamsters should be given no quarter.

Period.

Seriously, troll someplace else.

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

...I offered to help UBI regarding historical accuracy. They ignored me. They have a serious amount of blatantly wrong things regarding this but even for free would not be bothered to correct them. Real U-boat has also expressed no interest in these historical corrections.
It is amusing you feel you are protecting the non modders by insisting they, in effect not improve their SH3 unless they join in learning to do something they want no part of. You have decided these majority (Prove me wrong with actual numbers) of simmers must do as you or not get these mods, that because of permission, they can get.

Yawn. You always find a way to bring that nonsense up. Take that to the modders forum.