why hate socialism?

[Fish]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Funny, I lived in Russia for more than a little while, but I'm still a convinced socialist. It's true, socialism can go wrong - but then whether there was any real socialism in a place like Russia is debatable. I don't think there was.

People underestimate the positive impact socialism has had historically. In fact, I would say that were it not for socialist agenda being rationally implemented in the West in the form of labour regulation (work hours, minimum wage policies, unions), healthcare and improved public funding for other public services in the early 20th century, there would have been a revolution akin to the Russian one. The West cut it very close in those years, and many of those fixes were rather painful to the system and resisted almost to the extreme by some elements in society. But the fixes ultimately helped to save society and enhance democracy by creating a working middle class, something that's a necessity to maintain a free, democratic society in balance.

The problem is that now the balance is again threatened. There's going to need to be similar fixes as the system is basically breaking down. There is, of course, the other side to this where the social services themselves are in need of reform because they're getting abused (see the infamous "damn immigrants on welfare!" argument). The problem is that in all of this, a lot of upper-middle-class people and, shall we be honest and say "rednecks", are not seeing the bigger picture here. A lot of libertarian ideologues polluting their heads with the idea that if you have it, you've earned it, and if they don't have it - f them. The problem is that once you lose your middle class, you can say goodbye to democracy. You then might as well legalize slavery because that's what the situation will equate to. All that is good about the West's liberal democratic system and its social freedoms stems from economic balance and a predominance of a solid middle class.

What I've learned by growing up in Russia is not that socialism is bad. What I've learned is that a situation in a highly developed society where there is no middle class, but instead a small elite and a predominantly impoverished majority, is inherently impossible to maintain a fair, democratic system in - and furthermore results in major social collapse. It's a very tragic thing to watch. And if anyone for a second thinks that something like that is impossible in the West - well, time will tell. And I will say that if you don't protect your middle class and with it, a neccesary social balance, you're going to end up with a very tragic situation on your hands. There are fixes that, as in the early 20th century, the socialist agenda can offer. It's up to the society whether to accept them or not. But I'm afraid that if you think things will fix themselves, you're sadly mistaken.

Good post!

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Letum

Who can name the phillosopher who said that the only society one should advocate is on in which
you are happy to take any, even the most wretched, role in?
Because I have forgotten!

Sounds a bit like Rawlsian justice.

[Hanomag]

Whatever will be...will be. No amount of verbose orating or ranting or protesting or lobbying is going to change the big picture.

The world is run by the rich and powerful.... the end. You don't like it? Well your going to have a miserable life whining about it. Because you are definitely NOT going to change it. It's been this way since the begining of civilized culture. It is mans nature.

So no matter who you are or where you come from... either you have or you dont have. If you feel strongly about some political issue, get out there.. take a stand! See if you can rally some people to your cause. Maybe...just maybe, in some miniscule way you can make a dent. But laying out a biblical novel in a submarine video game forum isnt going to change anything.

Take a moment and look at yourself and say what have I done.... and I am not talking about writing a check to charity or recycling. What have you really done?
You think voting constitutes a change? Or helping effect a change?

I have to laugh at all the voting threads. Do you think for a minute that I really care who gets in office or that my vote makes a difference. Whoever they want, gets in office. What do they do for the little guy once in office, nothing. Well actually I did receieve a check in the mail from "W".

And you know what? Whether its democracy, socialism, communism, the little guy is still going to get the shaft. So B.O.H.I.C.A. (Bend Over Here It Comes Again) for you non military types. Grin and bear it, etc., etc.

So if you don't mind, I am going to get back to much, much more important things.. like sinking merchants...


PS Actually that "Supersize Me" movie changed something.. because of that toolbag, I cant order a supersized fry anymore. I'd like to meet that guy and punch him right in the grill.

[Thomen]

With all due respect to all who support (a more) socialist environment.. One thing should not be forgotten:

A large majority of the countries that are counted as socialist or have socialist tendencies experienced a catastrophic breakdown of their society within the last 100 years, thus making a transition or transformation (relatively) easy.

Russia had the October Revolution, China the Culture Revolution (and some others), central Europe was devastated by WWI and WW2. Cuba had Castro and so on.

IMO, the only country that came out of this with no significant cultural or social damage was the USA.

Personally I am all for a bit more socialism, but I do not believe that it will be as easy as it is being sold by Obama. I would almost go so far and say it wont work at all.

[AVGWarhawk]

It would seem we are associating Socialism with healthcare only in this election. Let the general public pay to take care of all. Sounds simple enough but....

I think America has looked at healthcare from the wrong end. Why is healthcare so expensive? How is it really determined how much an operation will be? Why does one pill cost $3.00 yet the drug companies can produce this one pill for pennies? I truly believe the healthcare system needs to be looked at in the cost for services/medicine prescribed. Why is there generic drugs that are half the price of name brand drugs that contain the exact same medicine? For example, Afrin nasal spray is about $8.00 for 5 oz. The Rite Aid brand is $3.50 for the exact same % of medicine in a larger oz bottle. For some reason, we have just accepted these outlandish costs for operation and medication and have chosen to just accept these costs. Personally, I believe heathcare needs a serious overhaul in this respect.

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

It would seem we are associating Socialism with healthcare only in this election. Let the general public pay to take care of all. Sounds simple enough but....

I think America has looked at healthcare from the wrong end. Why is healthcare so expensive? How is it really determined how much an operation will be? Why does one pill cost $3.00 yet the drug companies can produce this one pill for pennies? I truly believe the healthcare system needs to be looked at in the cost for services/medicine prescribed. Why is there generic drugs that are half the price of name brand drugs that contain the exact same medicine? For example, Afrin nasal spray is about $8.00 for 5 oz. The Rite Aid brand is $3.50 for the exact same % of medicine in a larger oz bottle. For some reason, we have just accepted these outlandish costs for operation and medication and have chosen to just accept these costs. Personally, I believe heathcare needs a serious overhaul in this respect.

The reasons for the cost difference between generic and brand name drugs are that the drug company that developed the brand name drug spent huge amounts on research and testing to develop the drug to begin with, took the risks of lawsuits because of unknown side effects, etc. Once the brand period expires, other drug companies are free to make the drug and the only costs they have are manufacturing, which in many cases is little or nothing.

I'm not saying this is entirely the difference in costs, but it does make up a large part of the difference when a drug is new. The name brand companies need to do a better job of reducing the prices after a drug is elligible to be released in generic form.

As for why health care is so costly in the US, you only need to look at one profession and that is lawyers. This country is so freakin' enamored with silly lawsuits that malpractice insurance costs are higher than the cost of providing medical service. Legislative bodies (primarily made up of lawyers) are so busy "protecting" people from themselves that they are inadvertantly screwing us all. As much as I hate it, the only way to get lawyers out of the medical system is to make it a government function and not allow malpractice suits against the government health care system. This would not serve the people well either, because then there would be no incentive to weed out the bad health care practitioners. How are we going to fix the system? Someone please come up with a solution that will work.

[Respenus]

I would like to say only one thing to stupid capitalists living in America!

Communism is not Socialism is not Social Democracy (Welfare state)!!!

*******************
The welfare state, the one you fear as being Socialist, was devised after the second world war in ORDER to prevent communist revolutions!

Now I leave you with this historical fact and let Skybird do the talking.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, but when does the profit margin stop after development? There must be a better way to bring down the costs of medicine and not just hang the cost across the board on the assumption of research. You are correct on the lawsuits. I thought litigation passed to stop fictious lawsuits. It is triffling with the ambulance chasers. I believe silly lawsuits need to be addressed more.

[Letum]

There is certainly a little lack of understanding if people are confusing communism
and socialism. Perhaps this is because the history of both is a European history
and not so much an American one.

[SUBMAN1]

I'm guessing that the people for Socialism are all dependent on government, and all of them think that government is going to make them rich, and that government is going to take care of them regardless of what happens in the future.

This is how Socialism is sold. A little clue, not only does this not work, but it will also bankrupt your country in due time. On top of that, those at the top use Socialism as a form of control for the rest of you, regardless how you all hide from this simple fact.

Capitalism is about choice. Always has been, always will be. I don't like people running around and telling me what I can or can't do. To live as an adult, this is my #1 job to figure out what it is that I should do and then do it. This has made my life better than that of those that sit around hoping the government will take care of them and that the government is the end all to all their problems. Sorry! Go take another crack hit because that is not how it works.

Socialism is the type of big government that made people leave their countries and come to the USA in the first place. They wanted a better life. They wanted control of there life. They were allowed to control their destiny as they see fit. And ya know? If a company like Microsoft has a monopoly hold on the market, and you think capitalism created this monster, in the end you still don't have to buy it! In a Socialist country however, the state might make you pay a tax so that everyone has to have a copy for the good of the country!

I could go on all day about why, but in the end, it all comes down to this:

Grow up, get out of your diapers, and be an adult.

Also read Neal's post.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Subman, you should have made yourself a favor and read Respenus' post before posting your nonsense.

Gee, let me get this straight. Socialism ultimately stems from Marxism, so unless you can prove to me that it is not, I don't buy it. Nor does anyone else for that matter. Sounds like rotten flesh with some whip cream on top to sell it.

-S

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Gee, let me get this straight. Socialism ultimately stems from Marxism, so unless you can prove to me that it is not, I don't buy it. Nor does anyone else for that matter. Sounds like rotten flesh with some whip cream on top to sell it.

-S

What's wrong with Marxism? :hmm:

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by CCIP

What's wrong with Marxism? :hmm:

From what you can gather from my above post, I think the better question is what is right with Marxism?

-S

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I had a long reply instead of that oneliner, and deleted it. It would be completely in vein. You already have made a decision never to see the many negative costs of capitalism that lead to incrasing distortions and conflicts in the world, make few and fewer people even richer, and more and more people falling down the sopcial ladder. Nationally. In the West. Globally. I also had a reference to the TV docu they just have had on TV, about the conditions in not few ERs in major cities that make mockery of what you said.

I think most people will not start looking beyond themselves before they get hit themselves.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you do not recognize your own editorial style here

What TV docu? Did they say the ERs are devoid of illegal aliens and low income people who don't have insurance? Because that's what it would take to make a mockery of what I said. Unless today is Opposite Day or something.

Yeah, I have my mind made up, same as you. So what? I'm not falling in line with your viewpoint. I live in the US, I understand how capitalism works, and what it takes to get ahead in life. So, I do it. No complaints here, the system works as advertised. The opportunity is the same for everyone, so if they make bad choices, or choices that limit their standard of living, why should I subsidize them?

As long as a capitalist system provides opportunity, it cannot be beat.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you do not recognize your own editorial style here

What TV docu? Did they say the ERs are devoid of illegal aliens and low income people who don't have insurance? Because that's what it would take to make a mockery of what I said. Unless today is Opposite Day or something.

Yeah, I have my mind made up, same as you. So what? I'm not falling in line with your viewpoint. I live in the US, I understand how capitalism works, and what it takes to get ahead in life. So, I do it. No complaints here, the system works as advertised. The opportunity is the same for everyone, so if they make bad choices, or choices that limit their standard of living, why should I subsidize them?

As long as a capitalist system provides opportunity, it cannot be beat.

Emphasize the idea of 'choice' from your post.

I find it humorous why the Europeans don't understand why America has been on top for so long? Maybe they really do get it and this is all an idea to bring us down to their lower level? :hmm:

Jealousy may be at play here.

-S