CHESS: Subsim team versus Letum

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I'll stick with d5xe4, I just didn't want to act in haste and mess something up again.

Thanks for the computer analyses sky. It's going to take me a whiles to map them out and learn from them, but I think they'll help.

You could also use your chessmaster to analyse the many if'S of the position after 8...g5. Just do not use it on the actual position, it would be unfair towards Letum, and would not help you to improve your skills.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

h7-h5?

that surely helps with castling queen side.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You could also use your chessmaster to analyse the many if'S of the position after 8...g5. Just do not use it on the actual position, it would be unfair towards Letum, and would not help you to improve your skills.

I don't have Chessmaster. Just Arena 1.1 without an engine. And my chessboard.

[Skybird]

[quote=UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I don't have Chessmaster. Just Arena 1.1 without an engine. And my chessboard.

Ah, somebody else it was, I think porphy, and another guy.

Check the homepage of Arena, they have several free engines and opening books.

I also recommend, for reduced price, this:

http://www.amazon.com/Viva-Media-Fri...1741603&sr=8-2

No need to spend 60$ on the latest versions by Chessbase's engines.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

that surely helps with castling queen side.

It helps a lot more than black 13.?? white 13. qh4-h5+, right?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

It helps a lot more than black 13.?? white 13. qh4-h5+, right?

Well Sunny, it seems there is nevertheless some chessplayer hidden behind this face of yours... I was thinking of Qd6, or Be6... All three is playable, but I'm in a hurry right now, so: carpe diem... Just see where the Queen can move to from h5 and after Ke7 - you sure White plays well when moving Qh5+ ?

[porphy]

Hi

White will probably attack the knight and exchange at g4 if possible, for example with Bf1-e2. White playing Qh4-h5+ at once leaves the square f2 vulnerable for a checking fork. Need to keep an eye on that. And white playing f2-f3 is no good idea as shown before. So it seems black might have just about the time needed to evacuate his majesty! Question is, how is it best done? I think I would have played Bc8-e6.

cheers porphy

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by porphy

Hi

White will probably attack the knight and exchange at g4 if possible, for example with Bf1-e2. White playing Qh4-h5+ at once leaves the square f2 vulnerable for a checking fork. Need to keep an eye on that. And white playing f2-f3 is no good idea as shown before. So it seems black might have just about the time needed to evacuate his majesty! Question is, how is it best done? I think I would have played Bc8-e6.

cheers porphy

I'm not ready to discount white 14. Qh4-h5+
He can just go back to h4 after black moves the king, ruining my fork again, and ruining any chance of castling. That's what I would do.

That bishop at f1 does concern me, though.

I can't seem to work out any variations where black doesn't suffer from trying avoid Qg3-g4+, unless white makes a mistake.

Here's one move list I worked out for h7-h5. It's probably not very precise and it involves a lot of carnage. It also seems hopelessly optimistic....

13.Qg3-h4 h7-h5
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4xf2+
15.Qh4xf2 f4-f3
16.Be2xf3 Nd4xf3
17.Qf2xf3 Rh8-f8
18.Qf3-g3 Rf8-f1+
19.Kd1-e2 Bc8-g4+
20.Ke2-e3 Qd8xg5+
21.Ke3-d4 Ra8-d8+
22.Kd4-c4 Bg4-e6+


Here's why I didn't consider Qd8-d6 much;
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-d8
15.Qh5-h4, ????
16. g5-g6+

And this;

13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-e7 or d8
15.Qh5-h4

Which doesn't look too good, imo.

I discounted Bc8-e6 for similar reasons, I can still end up in check, and it isn't like that bishop is getting off that diagonal while the knight at g4 is there, which makes the move kind of pointless, I think.

13.Qg3-h4 Bc8-e6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-f8
15.Qh5-h4


Another "ouch"
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4-e5
15.Qh4-h5+


So, I really don't know what to do, but I'm considering h7-h5 for the time being.

[porphy]

I'm not ready to discount white 14. Qh4-h5+
He can just go back to h4 after black moves the king, ruining my fork again, and ruining any chance of castling. That's what I would do.

That is certainly true, it ruins your castling, but black could adopt the "slow castling" method by moving the king and the other pieces one at a time. If white moves his queen twice just to give one check, with no powerful follow up, that gives black two free moves, evacuating the king! (which is what black wants anyway) And white lost tempo... and is back in his starting position...
Hence, the Bc8-e6 is just a way to start the process even before the possibility of a white check. Black counts on keep moving his king and queen, so that the rooks gets connected, and then the a8 rook can finally be played to the kingside.
Yes, your move h7-h5 will certainly come to use later on, but I think the priority for black is to get the king out of the way, and at the same time strengthen his position. That is getting the rooks and queen to work together. h7-h5 can be inter foiled somewhere along the way.

cheers Porphy

[porphy]

Here's one move list I worked out for h7-h5. It's probably not very precise and it involves a lot of carnage. It also seems hopelessly optimistic....

13.Qg3-h4 h7-h5
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4xf2+
15.Qh4xf2 f4-f3
16.Be2xf3 Nd4xf3
17.Qf2xf3 Rh8-f8
18.Qf3-g3 Rf8-f1+
19.Kd1-e2 Bc8-g4+
20.Ke2-e3 Qd8xg5+
21.Ke3-d4 Ra8-d8+
22.Kd4-c4 Bg4-e6+

I wouldn't worry to much about the bishop coming to e2, but put a question mark behind the reply 14. ..., Ng4xf2+

Why not
14. ..., Nd4xe2
15. Kd1xe2, Qd4!

or

14. ..., Nd4xe2
15. Ng1xe2, Qd6
(black is only two moves from proper castling, but the pawn at f4 will be under attack, but black has some countermeasures!)

Looks a lot more promising and a clean cut, don't you think? Maybe h7-h5 is an option after all.

But I think black has to look closer at white playing 14. g5xh5 (en passant) before going down the route of h7-h5. i leave that to you guys...

cheers Porphy

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Porphy

But I think black has to look closer at white playing 14. g5xh5 (en passant) before going down the route of h7-h5.

Question. Why would he do that? Black's response would almost certainly be Rh8xh6, no?

[Skybird]

edit

[Skybird]

Here's one move list I worked out for h7-h5. It's probably not very precise and it involves a lot of carnage. It also seems hopelessly optimistic....
13.Qg3-h4 h7-h5
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4xf2+
15.Qh4xf2 f4-f3
16.Be2xf3 Nd4xf3
17.Qf2xf3 Rh8-f8
18.Qf3-g3 Rf8-f1+
19.Kd1-e2 Bc8-g4+
20.Ke2-e3 Qd8xg5+
21.Ke3-d4 Ra8-d8+
22.Kd4-c4 Bg4-e6+

No, no, no, no, no. There are too many misses in your calculation. However, the position you have created, seems to lead to an enforced mate, so I understand why are you beign attracted...

In the above variation of yours:

After 15 Qf2: f3 , White simply plays
16. g2xf3 Kd4xe2
17. Kg1xe2 Qd8xg5
18. Qf2-d4 and prevents casteling queen side and threatens the rook at h8. After
18... Rh8-f8 (attacking f4)
19. f3-f4 ,

the black Queen can guard the pawn at h5 only at the cost of moving into inaction on the Queen'S side of the board (Qb5, Qa5), or delaying the loss only (Qg6, and White moves Qe5+ and double attack on h5) Both are bad options, with Black already being in a loosing position. So he has to give up the pawn:

19... Qg5-e7
20. Rh1xh5

White leads by 3 pawns, and his position is to be preferred, clearly so.



After 16 Bf3:, White will take back with the knight and stay much better than after Qf3:



17... Rf8 is a very huge mistake:
18. Qh5:+ (you oversaw that the check prevents black from moving Rf1+ and winning the Rook on a1?



Instead of your 19... Bg4+, better that mentioned Ra1:, becasue after 19... Bg4+ White decides the match by simply Kxf1. How did you come to Ke3 instead?

Here's why I didn't consider Qd8-d6 much;
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-d8
15.Qh5-h4, ????
16. g5-g6+
And this;
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-e7 or d8
15.Qh5-h4
Which doesn't look too good, imo.

Instead of those four ????, let Black move 15... Qb6 with counterthreat at b2, and later threat to a1 - or even mate-attack. Directly moving g6 and g7 is not an option for White. At least currently.

I discounted Bc8-e6 for similar reasons, I can still end up in check, and it isn't like that bishop is getting off that diagonal while the knight at g4 is there, which makes the move kind of pointless, I think.

13.Qg3-h4 Bc8-e6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-f8
15.Qh5-h4

Not Kf8, but Kd7! Connects Rook h8 to the powergrid, and brings the king one move closer to a safe foxhole.

Another "ouch"
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4-e5
15.Qh4-h5+

See above, it is not as dramatic as you think. Instead of Ne5 you could also play Nd4xe2.

Now porphy:

But I think black has to look closer at white playing 14. g5xh5 (en passant) before going down the route of h7-h5. i leave that to you guys...

Black would try moves like Qd6, Qb6 and threaten to breach into b2. With that knight on d4 and a second close by, that could easily turn into a devastating mate-attack.

Question. Why would he do that? Black's response would almost certainly be Rh8xh6, no?

Qd6 is better, it gives black more potential for counter-threats, while after Rh6: the situation levels out and gives equal chances for both:

13 Qh4 h5
14 gh6:ep Rh6:
15 Qd8:+ Kd8:
16 Rh6: Nh6:

White has 3 free pawns more, while Black has a knight more. Sounds like a long, boring endgame.

I hate endgames, I am not good at them.

[UnderseaLcpl]

White 13. Qg3-h4
Black 13. Qd8-d6

Official move.

[Letum]

Qh4-h5 Check