Problem with mark 14 torps

[nattydread]

Keep in mind, that none of the merchants have cargo load outs. So a tanker doesnt have any combustibles on board to put a "cherry on top" of your torp hits.

Oddly I see in many posts that tankers were hard to sink, but I have never seen that as a re-occuring issue in my readings...and I've read tons of WWII sub memoirs(Barnes & Nobles ran out of books for me, N. and S. California).

I totally see how an empty tanker can hold on for dear life, but the frequency of stubborn tankers in game is troublesome to me.

I was also surprised to see how much resolve the troop transports/cruise ships were. I'm not saying they shouldnt be, they are just stronger than I expected.

[ATR-42]

later in the war, ive had MUCH MUCH better luck with the "pink" torpedos(mk17s?), i forgot the model number, but they seem to be much more reliable and powerfull. im on my 3rd career and im stuck with the mark 14s right now and i go through the same stuff you do, especially when they explode 100yards before the target !


but i know that skippers back in the day had the same frustrations so i keep on firing and make more trips for refits....

[SirMoric]

Hmm, a ship full of oil is not easy to sink, especially not when you take into consideration that oil is ligther than water and the hole ship is divided into compartments to store oil.

Unless you get an explosion ripping a tanker into pieces they tend to suck up a lot of damage.

A torpedo going off right beside a ship will cause damage, but not as much as it will if exploding below a ship (design flaw of ships)....... (to us submariners that is).

rgds

[nattydread]

Originally Posted by SirMoric

Hmm, a ship full of oil is not easy to sink, especially not when you take into consideration that oil is ligther than water and the hole ship is divided into compartments to store oil.

Unless you get an explosion ripping a tanker into pieces they tend to suck up a lot of damage.

A torpedo going off right beside a ship will cause damage, but not as much as it will if exploding below a ship (design flaw of ships)....... (to us submariners that is).

rgds

Certainly a single torp into the side of a tanker with oil wouldnt garauntee a kill. But 2-3 wouldnt certainly seem to cause problems. Structural integerity for one, each hit is going to weaken the hull and its ability to hold up to the all powerful, weakest point seeking nature of liquid.

The first hit is going to case a significant amount of oil to spill out. If not tankers wouldnt care if the had gapping holes by running aground, and exxon Vladez wouldnt have been an issue. The lose of oil opens the door two things or a combination of both. Some heavier water displacing the oil and/or the creation of space or basically an air pocket. Now if the explosion is able to build enough pressure in the hold to blow the seals on doors/valves etc on the deck you get a nice little thing. The heavy water filling in and the light oil being push out the top of the tanker through the now open ports/doors/valves etc on the deck. She'll bleed oil out the top as water fills the holds.

If the seals hold, you may get an airpocket. This air pocket provides an area for gaseous expansion and atomization of the oil if hit by another torp, the atomization of the oil and the heat of the torp explosion and some due to compression by the explosion can facilitate a secondary fuel explosion.

So basically each hit should be increasing the odds of catostrophic structural failure and the odds of a secondary explosion. Each torp hit is likly weaking or breeching the various bulkheads in the holds...something tells me they werent intended to handle to internal pressures caused by an exploding torp, the shock wave the oil would transmit would likly be horrific, bending, twisting and causing bulges in the surrounding bulkheads.

A tanker's structure can take a collision or tearing along the hull pretty well, but setting off an explosion inside a closed compartment of its hold is a different story and completly different source of metal stress and fatigue.


Now as good as I hope all this sounds...its all personal speculation. And it doesnt prove a tanker "should" sink in 2, 3 or 4 torps.

Also, it seems to be accepted that tankers with more volitile contents did go up much easier...if not more dramatically

[GTHammer]

I've read lots about this and complained about it plenty myself, but my conclusion in the end is that the torps seem pretty accurate. I've played mostly early war patrols and campaigns and was at first frustrated at the number of torps required to make certain kills. However as time has progressed I've realized perhaps its been easier to focus on the negatives. The five or so odd torps I've had explode early stick out alot more in my mind than those that functioned perfectly and did good damage. I've had plenty of issues with torps, but I've also had a few one shot kills on smaller ships and even taken down a FUSO with 2 shots that hit low on the keel. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it seems pretty realistic that you're gunna strike out more often than you're gunna hit a home run.

[nattydread]

I dont mind the strike outs so much, I mind the strike outs when I do land several torp hits. I have duds on 100% for a reason and expect mishaps...just not kinetic energy absorbing space vessels.

[zylark]

Sometimes you get duds, premature detonations and non-functioning magnetic detonators. Not to mention the circlers with a broken gyro. As far as I see it it is not a bug, but a feature. That is how the mk14 fishes was. Very unstable. At least until late 43. Before mid/late 43, don't get surprised if less than half of your fishes actually hit their target, much less do any significant damage. You want a simulator, you got it

[donut]

More arcade-like, but fun,try this, mod. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=110828

[badb0y]

Originally Posted by ATR-42

especially when they explode 100yards before the target !

Ah, so i'm not the only one...
I can handle this though - just pi$$ed me off royally when a double hit on a freighter did nothing.....

[tater]

Yeah, real skippers were beaten up in their patrol endorsements for wasting torpedos. At the start of the war the doctrine was supposed to be to fire ONE torpedo at a merchant ship if it was ~5000 tons. Many skippers decided on their own after seeing 50-70% of their torpedos fail to fire spreads at anything worth a torpedo at all. They'd still get bashed for wasting torpedos, but they also might actually sink something.

[iccalm]

This community has been obsessed with an idea that ships are too vulnerable. One mod to Grey Wolves made them almost unsinkable.
I recently heard a quote from OTTO KRETSCHMER that close shot sinkings only required one torpedo.
SH4 is equally ridiculous. A mod is available to boost torpedo damage. It goes a little too far, but at least a 90 degree, close range hit on a small ship will sink it with one torpedo. I find this mod much improves the game.

[tater]

A 90 degree hit is far LESS likely to explode at all for an early war Mk14 torpedo. The contact fuse would break unless it hit at an angle.

The range? That should make zero difference in the least. The only place the range could possibly make any difference would be at the very end of a run if it was coasting and slowing down. Seriously, how can range affect lethality of a torpedo, exactly? A faster torpedo could possibly penetrate a thin-skinned merchant before detonating, but the speed is independant of range for most of the run. Closer to the sub, it should actually be slower, but accelerating. There is no possible other physics involved in a short range attack other than ease of hitting in the first place.

A couple stories about 1 hit sinkings doesn't do it. Look at records for US submarines and the number of torpedos it took to sink a target.

The whole point of the command's obsession with the USN skippers using fewer torpedos, and requiring the skippers to use the magnetic exploder early war was twofold.

One, there was a shortage of torpedos.

Two, the USN believed that the small warhead of the Mk14 was only capable of sinking a merchant ship wth 1 shot if used "properly" with the magnetic pistol under the keel. From their testing they thought that 5000 ton ships would require 2-3 if used in contact mode.

[badb0y]

Originally Posted by ATR-42

later in the war, ive had MUCH MUCH better luck with the "pink" torpedos(mk17s?), i forgot the model number, but they seem to be much more reliable and powerfull. im on my 3rd career and im stuck with the mark 14s right now and i go through the same stuff you do, especially when they explode 100yards before the target !


but i know that skippers back in the day had the same frustrations so i keep on firing and make more trips for refits....

agreed - i've found this also.