TMA Legs

[Bellman]

I agree with much that has been said above paricularly as it it applies to opposing the AI or unwary MP sub skippers.

However in MP sub v sub torp engagements are unrealisticaly* longer ranged and require raising tactical considerations above the mechanistic. It is not IMO appropriate to fixate on rigid TMA procedures. More a flexible approach requires course adjustment/s to place target in a beamed lag relative position whilst building the picture.

Injudicious change of course as prescribed in zig-zagging could take you from lag to lead throwing an anchor line** on the wary opponents TMA display. This will give away your specific range. The problem, at greater ranges, is that in pursuit of lag you hold a broadly reciprocal course and therefore are opening range. A carefull assessment of means of masking your risky turns and range reduction have to be devised. (Topography, layer, neutrals etc.) ***

Initiating TMA techniques should be secondary to good tactics.Much depends on your take on your degree of stealth/surprise and opponents skill/ability to prosper from any careless 'dancing' moves.

Edits:
* 'Knife fights' 1 - 4 nm it is claimed are 'realistic.'
** Construct your own scenario to observe the 'anchor line' range giver.
*** OR just gamble !! Sometimes you have to make a trade-off - giving to get ! Egs. change layer, speed and course early before he catches on !

[Dr.Sid]

Your turns should make it harder for opponent, not easier .. I don't get this ..

[Bellman]

Your thinking defensively !

I hope that we are talking positive aggressive TMA to achieve an accurate firing solution. Nobody said no turns - just dont give anything away easily (''injudicious') 'before you assess which tacking course/s (zig-zagging) will get you a solution before he does.

Yep there is a time and place for screwing his solution with speed, depth and course changes. I just like to send my fishes first on the money then I'll worry about fooling his 'solution.'

Edit: Anyway I risk predjucing my own MP so wont add any more to these Fleet course techniques . A Seawolf silently moves out into the estuary - to return ?

[hachiman]

Again thanx for replies.

[Sonoboy]

The Z in my video is nothing more than a clear illustration of what I'm doing. You don't have to make it a Z shape.

I think I will go and experiment with the turn giving away range thing.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Your turns should make it harder for opponent, not easier .. I don't get this ..

Perhaps this should make it clear:

CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> we'll baby step into the answer...to make sure you all undestand and appreciate the concept
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> you are in a LAG/BEAM LOS with your target
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> ah without bearign 1 cent max.
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> and your opponent unwittingly beleives that he is going to mess up your TMA be changing course all over that place.....
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> however, he makes a mistake.......
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> he changes the LOS on you from a LAG to a LEAD.....
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> after you already have LAG DATA on TMA
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> now imagine your TMA screen
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> you had a nice bearing fan forming with the LAG LOS
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> now all of a sudden, a new bearing line drops.....and instead of falling where you expected it should, it falls in the middle of the fan
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> everyone picture this?
<LT_Foca_16th> aye
<LTJGWayne69> aye
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> aye
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> aye
<CDR_Whitey_Mack> i do
<CAPT_CR_7th_FCO_TO> aye
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> ok, now where that new line...and the last line you had (before he changed course to a LEAD) intersect is his approximate new range
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> which is called an ANCHOR RANGE
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> typically, his actual range will be slightly up/down range from the interesection depending on the LOS you were in to begin with
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> so, the instant that he changed course to a lead, he was going 0 knots.....relative....because he had no bearing rate in the LOS
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> for that split second, he was all stop
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> !
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> diw lol
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> and that new ANCHOR RANGE represents his true range...because he wasn't moving (relative) at that moment...and for a statoinary target, X always marks the spot in TMA
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> right, diw
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> LTJG Apollo
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> what would happend when he ordered instead of turn his course just to go back emergrncy ?
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> emergency back without turninmg his sub
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> same thing....why anyone would do that, I have no idea...lol...but same princple...though it would take a little longer to see it on TMA than a turn
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> !
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> remember, TMA is a relative application.....the speeds are relative...not absolute
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> LTJG Nexus
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> in an akula or 688 he would break his TA i think (if extended), in a SW also ?
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> yea, he would..lol
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> both boats
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> a backing bell is not good for the TA....in this game or real life
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> now, ANCHOR RANGE will be discussed in great detail next class....as it is crucial for determining a TARGET ZIG.....
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> however, I thought you guys would like to know of this TMA exploit now
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> tell us please sir
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> and it yields an interesting point....this is why you only do data legs in the same LOS...(i.e. LAG)...with +/-30 degree course changes
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> you DO NOT what to change LOS to a LEAD on me during combat....
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> no no no no
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> rofl
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> you will give me an interest range to your boat...assuming I don't have it already
<CDR_Whitey_Mack> lol
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> so, the next time you are diving against an opponent, and he changes a LOS to you.....you have his range...
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> you don't have his course....unless your solution was good to begin with
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> and we will discuss that next class
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> but this is a quick way to get range if your opponent makes this very very common mistake
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> so, I have a great question for all of you
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> what if you are in a LEAD with me to begin with....and you know you have to go to a LAG, to get an accurate solution....but you also know that turning will give me your range....WHAT WILL YOU DO?
<CDR_Whitey_Mack> LOL
<CAPT_CR_7th_FCO_TO> lol head directly to your bearing fast lol
<LTJGWayne69> good question
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> mhh
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> think about it.....because it will happen...
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> !
<CDR_Whitey_Mack> alot
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> LTJG Apollo
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> in would fier an fish at your possible direction and let you change your course
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> going fishing
<LTJG_Apollo_3rd> so that i donty need to chnage my course
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> ok..lol...so you are goign to get me to change course
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> anyone else?
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> better thing is to have opp changing course for me
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> ok, so you both will sacrifice the time required to gain an effective firing solution....and wait for me to change course...
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> anyone else?
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> remember, you have NO IDEA what my range is ..... there is no way for you to know that in a LEAD
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> !
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> LTJG Nexus
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> nothing sorry
<LT_Foca_16th> !
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> LT Foca
<LT_Foca_16th> change speed and turn in LAG
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> !
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> aye....it's ultimately up to each of you....but in my opinion (only an opinion), I think it is foolish to wait....I myself, would turn into a LAG immediately...I want a firing solution as quickly as possible
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> and the game is about giving something to take something
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> LTJG NExus
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> i was thinking about changing course going perpendicular to the to the bearing lines enanching distance for 2 min then turn
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> in order to get some LEAD data...then gain some LAG data?
<CDR_Whitey_Mack> CDR BJ, did you explain to them the concept of "PROSECUTION WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE"
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> well, remember...you will have to have 2 minutes of LEAD DATA to begin with....to know that you are in a LEAD
<LTJG_Nexus7_FOO_3rd> in order to produce no crossing lines i thought...
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> lol..getting to that CDR
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> well, a LEAD will have no crossing lines...no bearing fan...as such, you will never get an accurate solution in a LEAD...and as I said...it will take you 4 minutes (two sets of lines) to find you you are in a LEAD...
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> however, you can effectively use LEAD data.....once you are in a LAG...and gaining LAG data
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> all a LAG does is elminate the variables of course and range in TMA
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> narrows down the possibilities for a straight dot stack
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> as CDR WM hinted at though...in response to the qeustion posed earlier
<LT_Foca_16th> !
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> your job...is to prosecute your target with extreme prejeduice.....your job is not to hide and wait to be engaged
<CDR_Blackjack_3rd_CTG2|SOAC-SC> he who achieves an accurate picture of the battefield first is always, ALWAYS, favored to win......because knowledge is power

[Dr.Sid]

Hm ! Interesesting .. must try that .. this calls for change in my tactics .. I play mostly against AI anyway.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Hm ! Interesesting .. must try that .. this calls for change in my tactics .. I play mostly against AI anyway.

Blackjack was a officer on a US submarine in real live.

[Dr.Sid]

I've just played few missions against AI and this is really helpful .. anytime target is going from lead to lag (or vice-versa), the place where LOBs crosses is very very close to the place where the target really is.

With lead situation LOB's crossing means maximum range .. with lag it means minimum range .. on transition it means exact range. It can really be deadly in MP I guess, especially if your contact tries to change from lead to lag by itself to get his TMA better.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I've just played few missions against AI and this is really helpful .. anytime target is going from lead to lag (or vice-versa), the place where LOBs crosses is very very close to the place where the target really is.

With lead situation LOB's crossing means maximum range .. with lag it means minimum range .. on transition it means exact range. It can really be deadly in MP I guess, especially if your contact tries to change from lead to lag by itself to get his TMA better.

Don't tell others... shhhh.