Type XXI? The saviour?

[Sulikate]

Originally Posted by CruiseTorpedo

I dont know about D-Day, but 1940? Heck ya it would have made a huge difference! 6 forward firing tubes, high speed while submerged, snorkel device, quick reload, and lots more! Who wouldnt believe it would have tipped the scales in 1940?

I agree. This boats could change quite a few battles all over the atlantic.

Go XXI! (and what about the Walter boats, these were amazing!)

[STEED]

The XXI in 1940 fat chance that was the year Hitler put the skids on long term research. And any way Germany would had still lost the war around late 1945 or by 1946. And America got the bomb, don't forget that one.

[bookworm_020]

If there had been the number of U-Boats that Donitiz had wanted (300) I think England would have been in deep trouble, regardless of what type of boat they were. It would have cut the supplies that Britain depended apon to survive, let alone fight with.

If England had fallen, would had America gone to war with Germany? Unkown, It would have been very hard to fight the German's from such a great distance. Even though F.D.R wanted to fight with England from an early stage, political will was against it. There was also strong support for Germany in Amercia, with such groups as the Bund, openly behind Hitler. Many people thought that this war wasn't for them, and prefered that American stay neutral.

The Bombing of Peal Harbour changed that view. So it's just a case of "what if"

[P_Funk]

Of course America would have joined the war. If Britain fell then there'd be no choice. Even back then when Americans were ignorant of a world view.

[AG124]

I don't know what to say about Type XXIs being introduced earlier in the war, but several of them served in the French and Soviet Navies post-war (and of course, Germany raised one for post-war useand eventually as a museum). The French ones served until the 1960s, and the Soviet ones served until the late 1950s (although one was retained as a training vessel until 1973). All of those were eventually scrapped. Also, the British and US appeared to be only interested in gaining information from the XXI design, and then using them as targets. But I guess post war designs built from the knowledge gained through these subs rendered them obsolete in the post war years anyway.

BTW - I don't think any Type XXIIIs saw any extensive service with Allied post-war navies - the USSR and Norway each commissioned one into their respective navies, but sthe Norwegian one was scrapped soon after. I think some VIIs and IXs saw service with the French, Soviet, Norwegian, and Spanish navies until the 1950s-1970s (I think they were all VIIC, VIIC/41, IXC, and maybe IXC/40).

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I remember reading quite specifically in Albert Speer's memoirs about how he and Doenitz decided to manufacture the XXI, and wondering why they hadn't done it years earlier as all the concepts in its design had existed for quite a while, already.

[kiwi_2005]

IMO If the XXI was around in 1940 Germany would of defeated Britain in the atlantic war. But they then would of had a new problem - america. And no doubt subs do get captured, fate would have it that a XXI would of fallen into the allies hands where say america with their huge production line would of made there own versions of the XXI and put more out than what germany could.

Also America/Britain slowed down the production of uboats with bombing raids on bases this would of been another problem.

[P_Funk]

Its a well known fact that it wasn't technological inferiority that killed Germany. The true killer was her industrial inferiority compared to the Allies. The XXI at the time it was introduced in the dying days of the war was capable of defeating all the advanced escort tactics and detection systems. The XXI was a huge step forward as it was a U-Boat that was actally designed to operate underwater primarily while all previous U-boats were merely surface ships with an ability to submerge as a means of escape.

You can look at the XXI alone and know that it could have owned the shipping routes throughout the whole war but that is a very isolated and unrealistic way to look at it. If there was a way for the XXI to have been a major impact on the Battle of the Atlantic it would have required more than just initiative to get it produced. Under the circumstances where there could have been enough type XXIs early enough in the war Germany would have to have had a much better industrial output and of course if this were true then the whole war would have been affected and thats much bigger than the XXI.

So in reality all these what ifs taht involves more than just individual decisions are more than just small little considerations but really involve re-evaluating the whole war.

EDIT. and yeah STEED is right. The Americans had the bomb so Germany would have been blasted anyway. Germany's nuclear program was a dead end. Though as I said if Germany could have produced the XXI in 1940 in large numbers it cuold have changed the way the war went completely because more production increases Germany's ability to fight Britain or maybe invade it successfully or maybe not lose Africa or maybe actually be able to overrun Russia before the Winter.

These waht ifs involve changing alot more than just the Nazi building qeue.

[Hartmann]

Perhaps they were too confident about the war course and not put the enough resources in 1940 renoving the u boat force, at least to arrive in 1943 with better boats or snorkels.

type XXI In 1940 could break havoc in the british navy and probably collapsing britain army .


A letter to roosevelt from churchill:


The mortal danger we face is the steady & increasing diminution of sea tonnage.Unless we can establish our ability to feed this island we may fall by the way.In the five weeks ending nov3 1940 britains losses totaled 420.000 tons, a figure comparable to the worst YEAR in ww1.The british govt.estimated that it would take a minimum 43 millon tons to keep britain going but the five week loss in nov cut the rate to 37 million tons.England wouldnot survive 1941 if this continued

[Stealth Hunter]

Perhaps it could have been the saviour of the Kreigsmarine and Germany. The only bad comments I have on it are that it lacks a deckgun that is used against ships and it lacks a stern torpedo tube. Lets face it, if I have a ship on my tail I expect to be able to defend myself rather than have to round about over and over while diving and surfacing trying to shake the enemy off my tail.

EDIT: Germany would have benefitted in my opinion if they had Focke Wulf fighters in 1940 and Me-323's. The Me's would land troops, tanks, and supplies in Britain's field regions and be covered by the Wulf's which had superior cannons and mg fire (6 cannons and 2 mg's). Not only that, but the Wulf's were fuel friendly meaning they could go quite a distance in bad weather and be very effective at the same time against the allies. The air battles in Russia showed its superiority. The motor of the Zero was bugged and its fuel lines were lightly armored. A single burst from a Corsair could rip the wings off a Zero in seconds and ignite a fire. The Japanese at tactics in the air sucked big time.

[Dan0859]

The big question here is logistics. If Germany had sufficient numbers of subs, whether they were XXI's or not, the British wouldn't have been able to win the Battle of Britian, as they wouldn't have had the supplies needed. The Battle of Britian was an extremely close thing as it was. The RAF was literally at the end of it's logistical rope when Hitler decided to stop targeting the RAF airfields, radar installations, etc. Their ability to continue fighting was estimated to be a matter of several days. They simply didn't have enough planes, pilots, supplies, etc. Yes, the Germans had taken heavy losses, but they were better off at that point than the Brits were. Had the Brits lost the Battle of Britian, they probably would have been forced to accept some sort of negotiated peace, which is what Hitler wanted in the first place. The US would have lost it's staging grounds for the invasions in N. Africa, Italy and France. Trying to stage a cross-Atlantic amphibious invasion to retake Britian wouldn't have even been possible until years later.
Much the same thing applies to the Eastern Front. The invasion of the USSR started some 6 weeks late, as the Germans had to deal with the Balkans and Greece before the invasion took place ("Thank you, Benito!"). This forced the Germans to spend time, men and supplies that she really couldn't afford to.
Even so, the Germans could have pulled it off. Had they taken Moscow, they would have deprived the Soviets of their only supply route for all of the Eastern Front. Every railroad entering into, as well as within Russia, ran through Moscow. You couldn't take a train from city A to city B without going to Moscow first. It's still true today, just look at a map.
Had the Germans taken Moscow, the Soviets wouldn't have had any way to transport any significant amount of men or materials. They wouldn't have had the means to put together any large-scale organized resistance to the Germans. Also, just for the record, the Germans had no problems setting up proxy governments in the USSR (Ukraine, for example). The Russians were hated by a lot of people, who were more than willing to cooperate with the Germans.
As far as the A bomb is concerned, without the Brits bombing the German research facilities and heavy water supplies, the Germans would have had it before we did. Any guesses what would have happened to an American invasion force headed to Britian if the Germans had nuclear V-1 and V-2 rockets?
So, yes, I think in a "what if" scenario, if the Germans had adequate numbers of XXI's (or subs in general), it would have been very possible for them to have won the war. Britian would have been neutralized, the Americans would have been years away from being able to take any effective action against them, and the Germans would have been fighting on only one front.

[Corsair]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

EDIT: Germany would have benefitted in my opinion if they had Focke Wulf fighters in 1940 and Me-323's. The Me's would land troops, tanks, and supplies in Britain's field regions and be covered by the Wulf's which had superior cannons and mg fire (6 cannons and 2 mg's). Not only that, but the Wulf's were fuel friendly meaning they could go quite a distance in bad weather and be very effective at the same time against the allies. The air battles in Russia showed its superiority. The motor of the Zero was bugged and its fuel lines were lightly armored. A single burst from a Corsair could rip the wings off a Zero in seconds and ignite a fire. The Japanese at tactics in the air sucked big time.

For being a long time flight simmer and reading a lot, I can assure you that at the start of the Pacific war, the Zero was far superior to the F4s, P40s and P39s the US had on the other side, and that their pilots had a lot more experience. No plane had armored fuel lines, it was armor plates protecting the fuel tanks, and above all the lack of self-sealing tanks was the problem. Of course it was nimble and unarmored but it could draw circles around US planes and climb faster (as a US pilot said, it was like we were walking up the stairs and they took the lift...) The Corsair came in much later and was in the beginning more dangerous for its pilots than for the Japanese, hence his nickname "Ensign Eliminator"... Its role has been I think very exaggerated thru movies and TV series, the F6F was the plane that scored by far the majority of victories.
Imho, no FW190 had 6 cannons, but only 4, even the late war Doras. As far as the Russian front is concerned, I don't think it was superior to the late VVS fighters like the Yak3 or the LA7. I would any day much prefer flying a Bf 109 Gustav - G6 to G14... I don't like the lack of front visibility in the FW190...But it's just me...