Mass Shooting thread

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by August

22 thousand plus gun control laws in this country have failed to solve the problem. Failed to even reduce the problem. Even more constitutionally infringing laws and regulations can not be the answer.

I think we need to do two things. We need to harden our school perimeters and provide security. We also need to have a conversation on how the medias coverage of these events and their perpetrators may actually be contributing to their frequency.

Indeed, after this sad event in Tennessee, there have been " copy cat " events country wide in the last few days. Security seems to be a very easy and rather elusive means to address these recurring issues. To the Law Enforcement officers credit who responded to this active shooter situation, they handled this situation as quick as humanly possibly and most likely averted more innocent lives being lost in dispatching this disturbed individual.

Legislatures in various states have floated the idea of having licensed and armed teachers. Some colleges are allowing their students to come to college armed, provided they have a legally obtained concealed carry license. I'm not sure how good of an idea this is however, one thing I am sure of.

Properly armed and trained people who carry weapons make very poor targets and for obvious reasons.

[August]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

Indeed, after this sad event in Tennessee, there have been copy " cat events " country wide in the last few days. Security seems to be a very easy and rather elusive means to address these recurring issues. To the Law Enforcement officers credit who responded to this active shooter situation, they handled this situation as quick as humanly possibly and most likely averted more innocent lives in dispatching this disturbed individual.

Legislatures in various states have floated the idea of having licensed and armed teachers. Some colleges are allowing their students to come to college armed, provided they have a legally obtained concealed carry license. I'm not sure how good of an idea this is however, one thing I am sure of.

Properly armed and trained people who carry weapons make very poor targets and for obvious reasons.

And just as important if not more they should be hardening school physical security. There are too many unlocked doors and easily shattered large glass panels. Keeping a mad killer outside even for a few minutes might well give law enforcement enough time to neutralize them before they can get at the kids or staff.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by August

And just as important if not more they should be hardening school physical security. There are too many unlocked doors and easily shattered large glass panels. Keeping a mad killer outside even for a few minutes might well give law enforcement enough time to neutralize them before they can get at the kids or staff.

That is exactly right. Armed staff / teachers may make a difference as well.

[Ostfriese]

Originally Posted by August

And just as important if not more they should be hardening school physical security. There are too many unlocked doors and easily shattered large glass panels. Keeping a mad killer outside even for a few minutes might well give law enforcement enough time to neutralize them before they can get at the kids or staff.

Well, schools aren't prisons, and they aren't designed as such for a reason: to make the children not feel like a prisoner. OK, who cares about children's feelings, anyway?
More importantly: all the easily available entryways you want to seal of are at the same time easily available exits. Your idea of creating chokepoints to make it difficult to get into the building also make it difficult to get out of the building, like during a fire.
And most importantly: in most cases of mass shootings the perpetrators know their targets very well, and they have found ways to get in despite hardened security.


Armed teachers? American teachers are already not paid enough and treated like ****, now you want to burden them with the role of SWAT as well? Also this idea would also INCREASE the number of guns in schools.

First of this would make it easier for a perpetrator to get a gun (it's down to mugging 5'1" Mrs. Smith, basically). Secondly teachers are normal people with normal problems, so arming them might have unintended consequences as well (mass shootings HAVE been commited by teachers as well).
Even with training the teachers don't become marines or SWAT members. They only become people in street clothes running around armed. If there really was a mass shooting: would a real SWAT team ask before shooting someone running around with a gun whether he/she was the perpetrator? I highly doubt that.

"Arming teachers" is like the typical American answer to guns: "More guns". That has never worked before.



And with all of this you are only fighting the symptoms, of course, but not the underlying problems, which -I admit- are much more complex to identify, let alone addressing them.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

...Armed teachers? American teachers are already not paid enough and treated like ****, now you want to burden them with the role of SWAT as well?....

That is the big fallacy over arming teachers. The military doesn't just give a recruit a gun and a pat on the head, so how can you expect 3rd Grade teacher Mrs. Chulsets to fill the roll of armed protector? The idea is pure bull****! Sure, schools can be hardened even more, but that's not enough. More needs to be done at the inconvenience of gun ownership, or should I say gun trade.

Keep the illegal gun trade to Mexico in check as well.

[August]

Originally Posted by Ostfriese

Well, schools aren't prisons, and they aren't designed as such for a reason: to make the children not feel like a prisoner. OK, who cares about children's feelings, anyway?
More importantly: all the easily available entryways you want to seal of are at the same time easily available exits. Your idea of creating chokepoints to make it difficult to get into the building also make it difficult to get out of the building, like during a fire.
And most importantly: in most cases of mass shootings the perpetrators know their targets very well, and they have found ways to get in despite hardened security.

You're making several assumptions, the biggest one being you think that the only way to secure a schools perimeter is to make it a prison. Well airports don't look like prisons, neither do banks yet both places would be extremely difficult targets for a mass shooter.

Your second assumption is that stronger doors and entryways create choke points. It doesn't have to be that way either. It's easy to make doors and windows that are difficult to open from the outside but a snap to open from the inside. Crash bars and electronic strikes. I've put in dozens of them. The only way they don't help is if somebody props one open like what happened in Ulvade.

"Arming teachers" is like the typical American answer to guns: "More guns". That has never worked before.

Says you. How many school shootings have there been in states where teachers can carry? None. Think about it.
Why didn't this latest nut not pick the other schools on her list? Too difficult because of police presence and difficulty getting into the school.

Same reason for both. Mass shooters like any other criminal shy away from hardened targets. Ever wonder why mass shootings ONLY happen in "gun free" zones?

And with all of this you are only fighting the symptoms, of course, but not the underlying problems, which -I admit- are much more complex to identify, let alone addressing them.

Here we can agree. Our society has created a generation of narcissistic sociopaths. That is going to reverberate in our society for decades.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by August

Says you. How many school shootings have there been in states where teachers can carry? None. Think about it.
Why didn't this latest nut not pick the other schools on her list? Too difficult because of police presence and difficulty getting into the school.

Same reason for both. Mass shooters like any other criminal shy away from hardened targets. Ever wonder why mass shootings ONLY happen in "gun free" zones?

Here we can agree. Our society has created a generation of narcissistic sociopaths. That is going to reverberate in our society for decades.

I see it as a failure that your teachers has to carry guns and that you have to have walk through a special door(like the ones they have in airport)

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I see it as a failure that your teachers has to carry guns and that you have to have walk through a special door(like the ones they have in airport)

Markus

You want people to do something about an individuals mind and how it thinks. That’s impossible.


What I hate is hypocrisy. Everyday you knowingly approve of child slavery, their deaths from mining precious and rare earth metals and the poisoning and destruction of the environment those mining operations cause. You willing support all of it and say nothing because in all honesty you don’t care one bit about those children or if they face hard misery and death.

You’re not alone though I don’t really care either. I gotta have my iPad.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

You want people to do something about an individuals mind and how it thinks. That’s impossible.


What I hate is hypocrisy. Everyday you knowingly approve of child slavery, their deaths from mining precious ad rare earth metals and the poisoning and destruction of the environment those mining operations cause. You willing support all of it and say nothing because in all honesty you don’t care one bit about those children or if they face hard misery and death.

You’re not alone though I don’t really care either. I gotta have my iPad.

Touché You got me there my friend-I have no argument to put up.

Markus

[August]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I see it as a failure that your teachers has to carry guns and that you have to have walk through a special door(like the ones they have in airport)

Markus

A failure of what exactly Markus?

What would you call the forcible confiscation of millions of legally owned firearms as the left is demanding? Would that be a failure too?

I say leaving our schools open and undefended when we have the ability and means to protect them, that's what I would call a real failure.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by August

A failure of what exactly Markus?

What would you call the forcible confiscation of millions of legally owned firearms as the left is demanding? Would that be a failure too?

I say leaving our schools open and undefended when we have the ability and means to protect them, that's what I would call a real failure.

What I meant was that your society has come so far in these school shootings that your teachers and guards has to carry gun in order to protect the children.

For me who's from Scandinavia/Germany it's unbelievable.

My comment isn't meant to criticize your society. It just made me

Markus

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by August

You're making several assumptions, the biggest one being you think that the only way to secure a schools perimeter is to make it a prison. Well airports don't look like prisons, neither do banks yet both places would be extremely difficult targets for a mass shooter.

Says you. How many school shootings have there been in states where teachers can carry? None. Think about it.
Why didn't this latest nut not pick the other schools on her list? Too difficult because of police presence and difficulty getting into the school.

Same reason for both. Mass shooters like any other criminal shy away from hardened targets. Ever wonder why mass shootings ONLY happen in "gun free" zones?

Here we can agree. Our society has created a generation of narcissistic sociopaths. That is going to reverberate in our society for decades.

I agree with all of this. If the will is there, you can protect anyone. I believe it can be easily done without the schools feeling like a prison. If the schools feel a bit like a prison, so be it. I think the kids in these times would feel safer if they knew there were mechanisms including deadly force, in place to protect their safety while at School and Church. It's very sad but in these times, we have to think about our most vulnerable citizens, meaning our kids. That's not to say the other people, older or otherwise aren't just as Important.

This lunatic chose this school because it was a soft target. Apparently, if reports are correct, she / it considered other targets but chose not to attack them because they were better protected. Rockstar said you can't predict someone's behavior. That's mostly true but not always. People around this crazy had alerted authorities to how unbalanced this individual was. It's sad to say but nothing can substitute for being prepared for the worst and planing accordingly.

The media certainly isn't helping either when they sensationalize tragic incidents like this as you and Neal have said, for ratings in competing with other networks.

[Cybermat47]

Media sensationalism could lead to other potential shooters being inspired or, even worse, trying to outdo their predecessors to achieve infamy.

Of course, though, that's not a single solution to the issue. Gun control and mental health are other factors that need to be addressed.

[Skybird]

The basis is a culture of violence, a founding of that culture in and by violence, and a historical heritage of violence. Social and sociometrical and economical reasons cannot be separated from this, since they too base on these fundaments, in their typical national interpretation that makes the USA actually the USA and different fom other places. The cream on top is a media circucs that from day to night lives by endlessly propagating "fear" as its greatest guarantor of quota and an endless focussing on and repetition of crime and violence. Not to mention the entertainment industry that is almost trivializing violence, turning it into an entertainment factor.

America is addicted to violence, it has it in its genes and in its blood and bones.

Think of the man what you want, but in Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore has worked out these connections as mercilessly as he has skillfully. It is and remains by far his best film, perhaps his only good film as some people say, I don't know, I don't know the others (or I forgot them, then i cannot have been too impressed: but BfC I remember).

Thats why I am pessimistic about linear instruments and measures being capable to solve the issue. All these calls for changes and laws and measures are cosmetic only, scratch only on the surface. Born in blood, living in blood, maybe summarises the dilemma best.