About merchant ship wartime colours

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Why wearing neutrality marks while sailing into an allied convoy ?

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

FAT lotta good it did them: https://www.konditori100.se/SiWW2/sww2lscs.htm

Nice link, well done Aktungbby

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Why wearing neutrality marks while sailing into an allied convoy ?

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

Makes sense. We should see the Swedish merchant fleet as a "mercenary fleet" of some sort. They sailed equallity to neutral, Allied and Axis ports, but they couldn't repaint their ships their ships every time they changed destinations. The best way to set up similar nations in game, is having two rosters for each of them, one neutral and the other allied. Ships belonging to the two rosters should be visually identical, but campaign files should call neutral ships to sail to/from neutral or Axis ports, whereas the "enemy" ones should be used within Allied shipping boud to/from England, USA, Canada, USSR, etc.
Probably Vecko has already done something similar for TWoS.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Probably Vecko has already done something similar for TWoS.

That's exactly what "Free XXX" nations are used for.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

That's exactly what "Free XXX" nations are used for.

Yes indeed, I know that. I am the one who reworked DesSides.cfg for Open Horizons II back in 2011, when Zedi was still in charge of the mod. With little changes the file is now part of TWoS; I think my exaplanatory notes are still in place btw.

When I created the "Free" nations I had exactly those "ambiguous" diplomatic stances in mind. Nonetheless, more recently, I came to realize that the said nations were poorly implemented in game, or not used at all. I will give you an example. The FreeAmerican nation was created for allowing the implementation of Neutrality Patrols, but I think they were never actually added to the campaign. IIRC, the last time I checked the FreeAmerican roster it was empty.

Several months ago I discussed the topic with Vecko, and I think that the shortcomings were amended at least in part. I say "at least in part" because the last time I offered to cooperate with him on those aspects of the OHII/TWoS campaign he gently refused my proposal, and then he came up with his own changes, so now I am unsure on which features were implemented according to my original idea and which not.

I hope I made myself clearer now

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by gap

I will give you an example. The FreeAmerican nation was created for allowing the implementation of Neutrality Patrols, but I think they were never actually added to the campaign. IIRC, the last time I checked the FreeAmerican roster it was empty.

Ooooh, ok ! So, despite USA being neutral until Dec 1941, some american escort ships or airplanes could attack us ? (but maybe without bombs and depth charges... )

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

I hope I made myself clearer now

Yes, sorry for my Captain Obvious moment. Of all people, you know best what these nations were created for

As for things being not / not fully implemented, the more I look into campaign files the more I see how much it could be still improved regarding historical accuracy. A pity there's not nearly enough modders interested in SH5 to do it all.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Yes, sorry for my Captain Obvious moment. Of all people, you know best what these nations were created for

No need to say sorry kapuhy!
I hope my previous post didn't sound polemic because that was not my intention

Originally Posted by kapuhy

As for things being not / not fully implemented, the more I look into campaign files the more I see how much it could be still improved regarding historical accuracy. A pity there's not nearly enough modders interested in SH5 to do it all.

If Vecko or anyone else is still interested in further improving the TWoS campaign with a focus on historical accuracy, I am on it too

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Ooooh, ok ! So, despite USA being neutral until Dec 1941, some american escort ships or airplanes could attack us ? (but maybe without bombs and depth charges... )

I am preparing a long post on this subject that you might finde interesting

[U-190]

Originally Posted by gap

No need to say sorry kapuhy!
I hope my previous post didn't sound polemic because that was not my intention



If Vecko or anyone else is still interested in further improving the TWoS campaign with a focus on historical accuracy, I am on it too



I am preparing a long post on this subject that you might finde interesting

[Mister_M]

Why not set the USA in allied side sooner, as you did first (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...&postcount=398), it's a good idea, and no need to add additional (virtual) free country :

[SideEntry 5]
Country=American
Side=1
StartDate=19410410	; First naval engagement between an U-boat and the destroyer USS Niblack; USA formally joined the conflict several months later, on 19411208
EndDate=19450901

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Possibly because you do not intend to stay in the convoy for entire cruise and don't want to have to paint them back on when you separate from it. Plus, there's a small chance that given two equally juicy targets in the periscope, U-Boat will select one that belongs to the enemy nation.

Yep - that's correct. I read a book called "Night of the U-Boats" that talked about the problem created by mixed nationality convoys - the author says UK sailors hated neutral ships; the giant flags & bright colors could give away a convoy's location. In HX-79 British tanker "Sitala" was sailing near the neutral Swedish tanker "Janus" on a moonlit night - both got sunk because the bright paint on "Janus" helped submarines find their convoy:

https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/641.html

https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/638.html

[Mister_M]

Good info !

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

both got sunk because the bright paint on "Janus" helped submarines find their convoy:

Is this clearly stated by the U-boats' captains themselves ?

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Good info !



Is this clearly stated by the U-boats' captains themselves ?

It was in a complaint to the Admiralty from an officer on the freighter "Hoyanger", which survived the battle. Not 100% sure that the U-Boat crews confirmed this, but I tend to believe his complaint - he said the "Janus" practically glowed in the moonlight bc of grey and white paint.

Out of curiosity I looked up Janus's shipping company in a WW2 ID book - sure enough the paint scheme for that line was grey and white. They also had bright yellow funnel markings...probably didn't help.

I also read an article on the TM-1 convoy disaster, with 7 of 9 tankers sunk (can't find the web page anymore, sorry) - the destroyers escorting the tankers were painted an inappropriate shade of grey, which the U-Boats used to locate the convoy in the moonlight.

Apparently, certain shades of grey paint made a ship highly visible on a clear night when the moon was out....thus the highly specific regulations about what shade of grey you were supposed to use.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

...the destroyers escorting the tankers were painted an inappropriate shade of grey, which the U-Boats used to locate the convoy in the moonlight.

Apparently, certain shades of grey paint made a ship highly visible on a clear night when the moon was out....thus the highly specific regulations about what shade of grey you were supposed to use.

I think that's why dark/black hulls were not repainted : it was very good to camouflage the ship at night. Only ships with white/bright/saturated colors were repainted with medium/dark grey paint.

To confirm this, it would be useful to find original (peace time) paint sheme of these ships :

Originally Posted by Mister_M

3. Ships with superstructures (probably) repainted in grey : the hull remains very dark (black). HEINA superstructures are perhaps actually white...

 

4. Ships in plain grey (probably a war repaint) : note that there are different shades of grey from ship to ship...

 

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I think that's why dark/black hulls were not repainted : it was very good to camouflage the ship at night. Only ships with white/bright/saturated colors were repainted with medium/dark grey paint.

To confirm this, it would be useful to find original (peace time) paint sheme of these ships :

The first ship I've searched for tends to confirm my hypothesis : Mercier had white superstructures (https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/986.html).

Same for Talthybius : https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...29&postcount=1

Phidias had white superstructures and a black strip at the top of the stack (https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/982.html).

Daru : https://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/z_daru_mv.jpg

Sally Maersk : https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/1089.html

...

So, finally, it seems that it was more important to remove white surfaces than black ones.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Description of second image says:

"Dazzle painting was not used as she would almost always be sailing in convoy"

...which kinda makes sense: dazzle does not help to hide a ship, only obscure its AOB, but if your target is in convoy accompanied by several rows of ships all sharing same course and speed, you have more ways to gather data then eyeballing a single target?

No idea if this was really the reasoning behind dropping dazzle of course.

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I think that's why dark/black hulls were not repainted : it was very good to camouflage the ship at night. Only ships with white/bright/saturated colors were repainted with medium/dark grey paint.

To confirm this, it would be useful to find original (peace time) paint sheme of these ships :

I am pretty sure Talthybius was an Alfred Holt co. ship, so her colors would have been white superstructure with brown trim, brown masts, blue funnel, & black hull. Not sure about the others....unfortunately they are not as distinct looking as the Blue Funnelers and I will have to look up!