F35 - the plane with anything but a stealthy financial footprint

[Skybird]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ch-ncna1259781

And even the relatively low $80 million-per-F-35 price tag is deceptive, because the F-35 has proven so expensive and challenging to maintain that every hour an F-35 is flown costs $36,000 on average, compared to $22,000 for an F-16. By an alternate metric, the F-35 is over three times more expensive per hourto fly.

My old lament. Too high costs mean smaller numbers, smaller numbers only to some degree can be compensated for by technology superiority (that is dwindling both on stealth and sensors). Even a supoerior plane still has nto developed the capability to be in two or three locations simultaneously. And every single loss weighs the heavier if you have no robust numbers in reserve.



Thats why the F35 never would be my choice.

[Mr Quatro]

It's sad that the F-35 proves the old ways of obtaining good (piloted) fighting aircraft did not work out.

Too much, too little, too late ... cost over runs, training, manning and stationing have left us worse off.

The future is unmanned fighter planes anyway offenses and defense.

Now the circle starts all over again ... I hope they all go to the great grave yard in the desert unused myself.

[Schizo]

::sigh:: Every new generation aircraft comes down to the same criticism and speculation as the generation before it. "It's too expensive!" "What's wrong with our current airframe?" Every new generation is leaps beyond what the old was. I like the F-35. Once enough of them are made it will be cheaper to maintain and cheaper to sell, just like the generations before.

But yes. Give it 50 years and it will all be drones most likely.

[mapuc]

I do not have the book anymore.

History of US air force.

I seem to recall there was huge problems with F-15 Eagle or was it F-14 Tomcat. It was one of these who had lots of childhood diseases.

Markus

[3catcircus]

To misquote Alvin Holmes:

"What's wrong wit da planes we got? I mean, they fly pretty goooddd, don't they?"

Joking aside, the cost overruns come down to one thing and one thing only: requirements creep.

[Von Due]

What I'm most curious about when it comes to the F-35 is: How will this design succeed in going against one of the axioms of aircraft design: You can not have one design to master all tasks ahead.
Did they make several designs for different variants to fullfill different roles? Will each variant come at a premium price? Will their customers need to buy multiple variants? Did they really manage to prove the aforementioned axiom wrong and create a jack of all trade? Or is it a design that will do some roles better than others and some roles poorer than competing designs?

[ET2SN]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I do not have the book anymore.

History of US air force.

I seem to recall there was huge problems with F-15 Eagle or was it F-14 Tomcat. It was one of these who had lots of childhood diseases.

Markus

Just off the top of my head:

F-14A- Engine stalls at critical angles of attack.

F-16A- Critical gyro for computer control would snap its rotor under high G loading causing total failure of the flight control computer. Faulty O2 system.

F-22A- "Faulty" O2 system/oxygen mask and regulator causing pilot to black out. Speculation was that the F-22 routinely operated at much higher altitude than previous fighters.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Just off the top of my head:

F-14A- Engine stalls at critical angles of attack.

F-16A- Critical gyro for computer control would snap its rotor under high G loading causing total failure of the flight control computer. Faulty O2 system.

F-22A- "Faulty" O2 system/oxygen mask and regulator causing pilot to black out. Speculation was that the F-22 routinely operated at much higher altitude than previous fighters.

I forgot to mention the most famous fighter jet, which had lots of problems during it lifetime.

F-104 Starfighter or in common F104 The Widowmaker.

Markus

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Schizo

::sigh:: Every new generation aircraft comes down to the same criticism and speculation as the generation before it. "It's too expensive!" "What's wrong with our current airframe?" Every new generation is leaps beyond what the old was. I like the F-35. Once enough of them are made it will be cheaper to maintain and cheaper to sell, just like the generations before.

But yes. Give it 50 years and it will all be drones most likely.

I remember the old A-10 Warthog. It was received like a pill of poop in a bag. These still fly today! The F-35 will find her place.

[Schizo]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I remember the old A-10 Warthog. It was received like a pill of poop in a bag. These still fly today! The F-35 will find her place.

Yes, the A-10 is an awesome airframe. I was in an aviation camp as a teenager and we drove down to Connecticut to an Air National Guard base. I got right up to one and was allowed to touch and look at the cockpit. Still remember it clearly to this day.

I used to fly the A-10C quite a bit in DCS World. Nowadays I fly the F-16C most of the time. Both good airframes but if I had to choose one over the other, it would be the F-16C. The A-10C is more fun to fly but the F-16 is a better overall design.

[Skybird]

They have their individual and defined roles for which they were designed. In these, both serve better than the other. The F16 however can be used in more different roles, that is true.

On your remark about maintenace costs of the F35, read the article again. I doubt it will ever become as cheap as you implied. Its an expensive aircraft, and it remains to be that. Production costs have dropped within the projected plan the producer announced earlier, not more. Wait until the midlife updates begin, and modernizations and system upgrades... If a plane starts its life with maintenace costs three times higher than that of the old wornout airframes it should replace, this is not a good sign (except for the servicing contractor...). Since this is one of the main reasons why older systems get replaced with newer models: using them on has become too expensive since they need more and more maintenace. It will be like this as well when the F35s made today will grow old in the future. Best example is the A-10, it still could fly and fight, and does fill its role better than any other plane in the US inventory. It excels in that role, but maintaining it has become so time- and cost-intensive that they pull(ed) the plug.