No more Active! Instantly made the 1968 Campaign more fun!

[Skyhigh]

Disabled the Active Sonar on all 1968 subs (in the files in Vessels folder).

So much better. They can still do a good job tracking you on Passive, but at least they don't give themselves easily away, or spoil the stalking by suddenly going active. You can nicely sneak up on them to pump a MK37 into their baffles.

(Mind you: when a sub has a towed array the towed array needs to be disabled too, like for the Yankee SSBN. If this is not done the game goes bonkers).

Of course it's possible in 1984 as well, but doing this makes the MK48/US Sub combo even more Godlike. But for 1968 it works well.

It's not that much easier - they still fire torps (and a lot) if they get you on passive. And they also fire snapshots.

For me it's more satisfactory. And the surface vessels remained untouched, they can ping away. But subs stay silent. As subs should.

[JhonSilver]

The thing is that the power of active sonar is pretty low.

I went through the 1984 campaign with Skipjack, with a noise level increased to 150 dB. And Russian active sonar reinforced by +10 dB,
on ultra complexity.
It was very interesting.

The main problem of the 1984 campaign is that missions are designed so that Russians use very little helicopters.
But helicopters are the basis of ASW tactics.
(and there not any "Godlike")

[FPSchazly]

Man, sometimes I feel like I need that active on the Skipjack to find anything haha

[Skyhigh]

Well my problem was this:


Once you fire a torpedo, every single sub in the neighbourhood goes active. So much for secrecy ey.
To me, that's just not much fun. Doesn't matter if the power is low - even at Active at -50 you still see the yellow bearing line, and so it will reveal the enemy's location.

But you are right, FPSchazly... sometimes you can't find the enemy anymore. That's either a lost mission or you go active yourself to wake them up... Sometimes they fire a bearing-only torpedo and it gives you a hint of where they are.

[Julhelm]

Mk48 is too good. I have actually been working on rebalancing the sensors, noise values on US vs Soviet subs and the campaign missions themselves. 68 in particular plays much better once formations are smaller and more dispersed, and you can use the Mk16's a lot more efficiently.

I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Mk48 is too good. I have actually been working on rebalancing the sensors, noise values on US vs Soviet subs and the campaign missions themselves. 68 in particular plays much better once formations are smaller and more dispersed, and you can use the Mk16's a lot more efficiently.

Excited!!

I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

Yes "sometimes" is fine, but now it is just too much and seemingly random.
I myself would think of going active too when I am flanking away, since my loudness will give me away anyhow. So if the AI could do it at >20 knots or something, yeah why not?

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

Yes "sometimes" is fine, but now it is just too much and seemingly random.
I myself would think of going active too when I am flanking away, since my loudness will give me away anyhow. So if the AI could do it at >20 knots or something, yeah why not?

Not realistic though - you could transmit easilly enough, but remember that your passive sensor has to be able to hear the echo for it to do any good. Once you get up to 20+, the flow noise over the sphere would be so loud that you are effectively deaf. In essence, you'd be shouting to no effect.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

Once you fire a torpedo, every single sub in the neighbourhood goes active. So much for secrecy ey.

Once you fire a torpedo, every sub nearby hears your firing transients, or they hear the high speed screws of the torpedo itself, and if they didn't have you on passive sonar, the smart thing to do is go active and acquire you as fast as possible.

I don't fault the AI for being aggressive. In fact, I salute it.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by Raptor_Pilot

Once you fire a torpedo, every sub nearby hears your firing transients, or they hear the high speed screws of the torpedo itself, and if they didn't have you on passive sonar, the smart thing to do is go active and acquire you as fast as possible.

I don't fault the AI for being aggressive. In fact, I salute it.

Not sure if that is smart though. It means that all an American has to do is fire a torp into the blue to make every enemy reveal itself.

But if you have played this a lot, then you also know they ping at random, even without firing a shot. They ping all the time. Revealing themselves.

Shadriss also has a good point. So maybe don't ping at all. Really, try and disable it: for me, the gameplay improved (in 1968 atm).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I think they should use active *sometimes* but not sure what the parameters for this should be. Perhaps once they are evading weapons and go fast, then they should start pinging so that they can return fire on you.

I think at least from a gameplay perspective, it is OK as it is. It makes for a nice unpredictable game, which is a lot less exploitable than you always getting to sneak up into the baffles using sonar superiority.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I think at least from a gameplay perspective, it is OK as it is. It makes for a nice unpredictable game, which is a lot less exploitable than you always getting to sneak up into the baffles using sonar superiority.

It is an exploit that the enemy - which was not detected before - suddenly reveals itself by pinging. That is a problem. Pinging is a sin, in a sub.

And you don't always get to sneak up - at closer ranges, which you need for the MK37, the enemy passive is working very well.
You still need to manoever smartly - so much different from the active sonar trigger fest that happens now.

It would be even more fun if the enemy clears its baffles a bit more but other than that it's cool.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

But you don't always get to sneak up - at closer ranges, which you need for the MK37, the enemy passive is working very well.
You still need to manoever smartly - so much different from the active sonar trigger fest that happens now.

In 1968, I tend to manage to keep my numbers below that critical +10 fairly easily until I can get into his baffles.

Personally, my proposal is to degrade the quality of the information provided by the acoustic intercept receiver. The WLR-9's DFing ability is apparently classified, but the MGK-400EM's isn't, and it suggests at higher frequencies the accuracy degrades, fast - possibly because the signal can be shorter and then there's insufficient time to lock on properly to it.

But yes, I agree that it would be nice if they sweep their baffles more often, particularly when running. Even brief looks can often give them the opportunity to detect a sub running up desperately to cream them with those useless Mark 37s.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

In 1968, I tend to manage to keep my numbers below that critical +10 fairly easily until I can get into his baffles.

Yet still other subs than the one you are chasing will ping and you know where they are = not fun.

Why on earth should they ping at all? They are subs. Secret service of the deep. Silent but deadly etc.
And don't tell me it was doctrine. Not in 68 for sure. Its just a bit silly.

[Mitchmaker]

Well i must say in the years i spend on a conventional submarine we never used the active sonar once. It simply didn't happen, we the sonaroperators finally joked about the useless active base in our nose sometimes. For my understanding active sonar on a Sub doesn't make sense, well at least in the way the enemy uses it in the game at this moment. Because in nearly every live exercise we had, as soon as a Sub or a ship went active we had a perfect firing solution a few seconds after.
I would say the active sonar should be more effective and accurate but it should less often be used. Thats my opinion.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

Yet still other subs than the one you are chasing will ping and you know where they are = not fun.

Why on earth should they ping at all? They are subs. Secret service of the deep. Silent but deadly etc.
And don't tell me it was doctrine. Not in 68 for sure. Its just a bit silly.

Because the enemy is quieter than they are.

To take a point more to your side though, KFG might do well to come up with a passive only AI for when the "Soviet Campaign" goes active. Imagine the screaming when otherwise undetected American submarines give themselves away by active pinging.