Evading torpedoes in this game makes me wonder about RL

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Shadriss

Torpedo evasion is... kind of an unknown. The sub crews train for it, of course, but that training is based on assessments of what the opposing weapons can do, and not from any real experience. By which I mean that the only way to know for certain if the tactics work is to get shot at... which I, speaking for myself and what I assume to be most of the sub fleet, would just as soon NOT do.

Couldn't drills be done with warhead-less torpedoes? For all intents and purposes they'd be like live ones for evasion purposes. Only they wouldn't explode if they hit.

Seems too much of an obvious avenue to not have been considered. What's wrong with it?

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Couldn't drills be done with warhead-less torpedoes? For all intents and purposes they'd be like live ones for evasion purposes. Only they wouldn't explode if they hit.

Seems too much of an obvious avenue to not have been considered. What's wrong with it?

There was a GUPPY boat which was used for just that. It had to be specially plated for them to bounce Mk 37s off it. Still, I would guess that wouldn't be looked on so kindly today for all the things that could go wrong. Even without a warhead, you have something like that clang off of your screw, probably enough to bend some blades or even the propeller shaft, boat out of service and millions in unexpected yard-work.

My guess is that they probably have computer simulations of all that that would knock you socks off, but yeah the applied aspect of it just isn't there.

[jenrick]

Also having a torpedo running around isn't the same as having an enemy torpedo running around. We can development the best torpedo evasion protocol in the world for our own torpedoes, but it'd be a guess on how they'd work against the other sides.

-Jenrick

[caine007]

I'm surprised they haven't made a kickass drone "torpedo" with a nice squishy head (or an awesome braking system) to train crews with. Save weight by leaving out the warhead and guidance system and make it entirely manually controlled. Match it to projected enemy capabilities and then ramp it up to superhuman levels.

Then again I guess if the sim is awesome, maybe it's just safer.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by caine007

Save weight by leaving out the warhead and guidance system and make it entirely manually controlled. Match it to projected enemy capabilities and then ramp it up to superhuman levels.
.

I'm pretty sure warhead and guidance aren't the heaviest parts of a torpedo (in Mk-48 warhead is about 17% of total mass). Even then there's also issue of balance. And if you were to develop a new torpedo just for training purposes then there's the issue of cost.

Still, what's the point of doing all that if a decent software with all the available data can simulate the whole thing just as much.
The big problem is that you don't know how the ENEMY torpedoes will behave.
You can be an expert at avoiding Mk48s but how is that going to help if the enemy torps will behave differently.

For ex. when I was working on torpedoes for my mod I increased the range of some Russian torpedoes. As a result the tactic of changing depth and gainign as much distance as possible stopped working because the torpedo would reacquire you before you can get out of its range.

[Destex]

Since torpedoes are more maneuverable than subs I don't suppose steep CW styled turns will save you. They can help but only marginally. If you were detected and shot at, hope your countermeasures and the intelligence they were based on, will work

[ollie1983]

They spy on exercises principally to see how platforms, sensors and weapons perform. Been done for decades.

A lot of technology is also for sale, it isn't too hard to work out its capabilities just by looking at blueprints.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by ollie1983

They spy on exercises principally to see how platforms, sensors and weapons perform. Been done for decades.

A lot of technology is also for sale, it isn't too hard to work out its capabilities just by looking at blueprints.

Yes, but I think these days it's the software that's the important part. A different behaviour can ruin your entire evasion plan.

Spying on exercises wouldn't help much unless the enemy is firing actual live torpedoes at each other.

You can try to figure out their torpedo behaviour by watching their evasion manoeuvres but the might as well adjust them to what they think your torps would do.

Even export weapons aren't perfect because I don't think their guidance system is on par with the base models.

IMHO the only way to prepare an evasion tactic is to either see an enemy torpedo in action (against a target that's actually doing it's best to evade it) or get a hold of one.
Otherwise the best you can do is to account for the most probable situations and modify your movements on the fly.

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

IMHO the only way to prepare an evasion tactic is to either see an enemy torpedo in action (against a target that's actually doing it's best to evade it) or get a hold of one.
Otherwise the best you can do is to account for the most probable situations and modify your movements on the fly.

This is essentially what I was pointing out. We can plan for, project, and estimate to our hearts content... until we get shot at, there's simply no way to know, and at that point there are only two options.

A) We live to tell everyone at home it works.
B) We go on Eternal Patrol.

[caine007]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

There was a GUPPY boat which was used for just that. It had to be specially plated for them to bounce Mk 37s off it. Still, I would guess that wouldn't be looked on so kindly today for all the things that could go wrong. Even without a warhead, you have something like that clang off of your screw, probably enough to bend some blades or even the propeller shaft, boat out of service and millions in unexpected yard-work.

My guess is that they probably have computer simulations of all that that would knock you socks off, but yeah the applied aspect of it just isn't there.

Reminds me of Operation Pinball.

[Delgard]

Maybe a soft, squishy paintball warhead. But, they could be embarrassing arriving back in port.

[PL_Harpoon]

Well, a torpedo weights about 1,6 tons. If you put this number into this: http://calculator.tutorvista.com/imp...alculator.html

that would result in something like the enrgy of 1.5kg of TNT.
To put that in perspective here's a video of 2kg of TNT:


Sure, it wouldn't sink the boat, but it might damage the hull, destroy the screws/towed array/planes etc.