Manual Targeting in TMO different from stock game?

[Gray Lensman]

Okay, to partially atone for going OT about weather...

Regarding Manual Targeting in game.

Perusing Rockin Robbins bag of tricks thread stickied at the top of this forum. There is a link from ColonelSandersLite regarding Advanced Convoy Simultaneous Hits. Not only is this a great thread from the standpoint of the intended subject, BUT, he, ColonelSandersLite provides some excellent training aids, one of which is extremely useful for target acquisition and approach training. He prepackaged a set of eight single missions to use for such practice. I have found them to be of great value for any sort of practice imaginable. I took the liberty of separating six of them out for posting as an attachment here for anyone wishing to practice manual targeting using whatever techniques they are interested in at the moment. These are much more useful than the canned stock training missions

I just add them to the end of my mod soup whenever I want to practice something and then remove them whenever. I'm pretty sure they won't interfere with any other mods since the only thing they do is add to the Single Missions list without overwriting anything previous.

Note to Moderator(s): I changed the extension to .txt from .zip because your attachment format doesn't cover .zip files. I thought maybe there might be a specific reason for such exclusion but could find nothing in the Rules. Let me know if it is some sort of infraction and I'll find some other way to post the .zip file



ColonelSandersLite's Training Missions (click/download attachment and change extension from .txt back to .zip)


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[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

There is a link from ColonelSandersLite regarding Advanced Convoy Simultaneous Hits. Not only is this a great thread from the standpoint of the intended subject, BUT, he, ColonelSandersLite provides some excellent training aids, one of which is extremely useful for target acquisition and approach training. He prepackaged a set of eight single missions to use for such practice. I have found them to be of great value for any sort of practice imaginable.

A guy commented on one of those videos a couple of days ago so I thought I would stop in, only to find people talking about me .

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I don't know where the commonly believed fallacy of AoB being dependent on your course came from, but it's dead wrong

Originally Posted by razark

Is that commonly believed? I've never heard of that until you mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I've run into it repeatedly. However referencing your diagram shows clearly that owncourse is entirely irrelevant to AoB.

That diagram is wrong. What's labeled as the "Track Angle" is actually the "Torpedo Track Angle". Basically every measure between V Torpedo and V Target needs to have the word Torpedo inserted. See the USN fire control manual at http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm page 1-12 for a more information. "Track Angle" is actually the relationship between your course and the target course.

That being said, AOB is related to own course. Intercept angle, Bearing, and AOB must add to 180 or it's not a triangle. Intercept angle is based on the difference between your course and target course.

We can say it's a mathematical certainty that if you keep any one point of the triangle constant over time, the other two must change unless you are on a collision course.

The most common constant in a torpedo attack is going to be track angle. Since track angle isn't going to change, bearing and AOB will.

Suppose you want to keep AOB constant though. Why might you do this? Maybe you want your torpedoes to hit the target at a certain angle and you're not happy with the range. In order to keep AOB constant, you must change course and bearing.

Suppose you want to keep bearing constant. Why? Perhaps you're doing an end around to get in front of the target. In this case, you want to keep distance constant so you move around the circumference of a circle centered on the target. AOB and course must change.

In the case of a collision course, all 3 angles remain constant over time, changing the scaling of the triangle, but not the angles.


edit: fixed a small mistake

edit 2: fixed another mistake. I'm on a roll today...

[ColonelSandersLite]

Getting back to the topic of working the TDC, I thought I would state my own data entry procedure when using the position keeper.


Determine target course and speed via any method.

Enter speed into the TDC first.

Enter approximate AOB into the TDC.

Enter bearing and range into the TDC.

Start the position keeper.

Fine tune the AOB.

Get fresh bearing and range entered into the TDC.




If I'm not using the position keeper, my normal procedure is:

Determine target course and speed via any method.

Ensure the position keeper is off.

Set speed to either 0 or target speed depending on method of shooting.

Send range and shoot bearing to the TDC.

Set AOB to either 0 or the AOB of the target at the shoot bearing, depending on method.

Resend range and shoot bearing to the TDC just before firing to ensure that they haven't been messed up by a stadimeter reading or whatever during the approach.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

Getting back to the topic of working the TDC, I thought I would state my own data entry procedure when using the position keeper.


Determine target course and speed via any method.

Enter speed into the TDC first.

Enter approximate AOB into the TDC.

Enter bearing and range into the TDC.

Start the position keeper.

Fine tune the AOB.

Get fresh bearing and range entered into the TDC.




If I'm not using the position keeper, my normal procedure is:

Determine target course and speed via any method.

Ensure the position keeper is off.

Set speed to either 0 or target speed depending on method of shooting.

Send range and shoot bearing to the TDC.

Set AOB to either 0 or the AOB of the target at the shoot bearing, depending on method.

Resend range and shoot bearing to the TDC just before firing to ensure that they haven't been messed up by a stadimeter reading or whatever during the approach.

Very glad to hear directly from you.

I'm going to use your PK steps for my initial PK training.



re: not using the PK

What method allows for a 0 (zero) speed setting?

What method allows for a 0 AOB or do you mean 90 degrees AOB?

Are those "Down the throat" setup settings?

Thanks for sharing tips!

[ColonelSandersLite]

I usually use 0 speed and AOB for zero gyro shots. I just look up the bearing to aim the scope at on on a reference table. Since you have my reference materials archive, you already have the tables I use. I probably use this method 90% or more of the time when I'm just attacking a lone merchant tracked by radar.

I also have a tendency to finish off ships using just 0 gyro shots and guessing the lead angle. I usually hit. Make enough 0 gyro shots and it's not too hard to do.

Also, yes, I've done that for down the throat shots as well.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

I usually use 0 speed and AOB for zero gyro shots. I just look up the bearing to aim the scope at on on a reference table. Since you have my reference materials archive, you already have the tables I use. I probably use this method 90% or more of the time when I'm just attacking a lone merchant tracked by radar.

I also have a tendency to finish off ships using just 0 gyro shots and guessing the lead angle. I usually hit. Make enough 0 gyro shots and it's not too hard to do.

Also, yes, I've done that for down the throat shots as well.

To make sure I'm understanding this correctly... You're just using 0 speed and 0 AOB as a setting on the TDC to get a "straight as possible" torpedo run and using your reference charts to place the scope on the correct lead angle?

Interesting refinement if that's the case, since my constant bearing shots (no PK) always involve setting the TDC speed to target speed (not 0 unless the target is actually stopped), choosing a lead angle to fire (i.e. usually 10 slow target/15 medium target /20 fast target degrees) and setting that as my target's AOB (at point of firing). Then I scope down the same lead angle allowing the TDC to make slight gyro alterations in the final firing solution.

re: your last (no PK step)

Resend range and shoot bearing to the TDC just before firing to ensure that they haven't been messed up by a stadimeter reading or whatever during the approach.

I usually just quickly flip over to the attack screen momentarily to ensure that the TDC setup has not changed. I used to do it your way, but every so often I would get into some sort of "locked' situation where hitting the triangle would not reset the TDC or worse, mess up an already good setup, so rather than mess with the settings last minute automatically, I check the attack screen solution first to see if it's necessary.

[Rockin Robbins]

There is one thing wrong with ColonelSandersLite's instructions for using the PK, and if you followed my earlier instructions, you already know what it is.

After entering speed and AoB it is absolutely vital that the PK be on before you take your range/bearing sight. ColonelSandersLite turns on the PK after the range/bearing sight. The reason that is wrong is that after taking the sight in ColonelSandersLite's method, your artificial target is not moving. The real target is. Therefore you introduce an error in the amount of distance the target moves between when you hit the send button on the stadimeter to when you start the PK. The artificial target, which is what the sub really shoots at, will be behind the real target by that distance.

If you subsequently take another stadimeter shot, it will correct the error. But why would you use wrong procedure to introduce the error to begin with? Just turn on the PK first and you'll be bang on every time.

I used to use a chart to do lead angle. I stopped. Why? What is easier than picking the wrong column off a chart when under time pressure? NOTHING! Humans make stupid errors given the slightest opportunity, and so will you. However the TDC doesn't make that mistake. It always knows which speed of which kind of torpedo is going out the selected tube. It always is picking the correct gyro angle. That's why the Dick O'Kane method uses a rule of thumb for lead angle and lets the TDC pick the gyro angle. It works correctly every time. People don't.

Simplify. Toss out steps that introduce foreseeable error. Then do it some more. What you're left with is repeatable valid procedure.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

To make sure I'm understanding this correctly... You're just using 0 speed and 0 AOB as a setting on the TDC to get a "straight as possible" torpedo run and using your reference charts to place the scope on the correct lead angle?

Yep. Not mentioned explicitly, but to be clear, when using that method you'll want to sight the periscope at bearing 0/180 and send a range. The range you send doesn't matter, you're just telling the TDC to shoot straight with this setup.

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

(i.e. usually 10 slow target/15 medium target /20 fast target degrees) and setting that as my target's AOB (at point of firing). Then I scope down the same lead angle allowing the TDC to make slight gyro alterations in the final firing solution.

Yeah, you got that from one of Rockin Robbins right? Nothing wrong with doing it that way either. That method has a bit more built in error correction in the event you forgot your torpedo speed setting or have the periscope pointed a bit wrong or something.

My favored method above gives a straighter gyro angle, which can yield better accuracy when shooting at long range. It is also a flatly better method in the event you don't actually know target speed and course and want to just guess the lead angle and snap a shot off when target is at some arbitrary bearing because you don't want to be fiddling with dials when you're doing that.

Both are perfectly valid.




There's a third method that combines the best of both but requires you to do more work.

First, plot the target normally and determine target speed and the track angle. For example sake, we will say track angle is 60 degrees port.

Second solve the lead angle with the lookup chart. For example sake, we will say that you need to shoot when target is on bearing 10.

Third, enter the target speed into the TDC.

Fourth, enter the target AOB for where it will be when you shoot at it. In this case, 60 - 10 means 50 degrees AOB.

Fifth, point the periscope at the aiming bearing. Bearing 10 in this example.

Sixth, just before you fire (basically just before the ship starts to cross the line is what you want), use the stadimeter to get target range and bearing.

Seventh, move the periscope back to the aiming bearing and resend range. Do not move the periscope again until you are done shooting. Shoot as you would for the other constant bearing techniques.


The downside is obviously that it's more work.

The upsides? For starters, it has exactly the same level of error forgiveness as Rockin Robbins technique above and since you're not just guessing the lead angle, the gyro angle will be very straight every time if you do it correctly. That combination makes it the most accurate method of shooting that I know. Combining this method, electric torpedoes, and map contacts enabled yields an incredible amount of accuracy even out to maximum range. Not only do I hit the ship nearly every time (baring malfunctions), I hit the exact part of the ship I was aiming at nearly every time.

The other big upside is that it allows you to more quickly change targets in a convoy attack since speed is already entered. I used this method for the 0 gyro shots in the tutorial videos you mentioned specifically because of that.