Real Submarine Technology & History Q&A

ColonelSandersLite · 09-21-15, 12:28 PM

Also worth mentioning. If you look at pictures of the prop guards, it's very obvious that there are a lot of variations of them.

Compare:

Notice that the guard rails are very flat. 2 pairs of cross braces. The lower set is almost horizontal and the top set is heavily angled down. I believe the vertical bar there is a temporary construction support, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Here's a couple of photos from the wreckage of the grunion:

Notice that the cross braces on the topside are nearly horizontal and the bottom braces are angled sharply, the opposite of the above. Also notice that the forward side is angled more than the stern side. Again, the opposite of permit.

Silversides:

Just completely different, I believe that this is the bolt on setup as evidenced by the next photo.

Silversides without guards:

Silversides Today:

Notice the configuration changed sometime after the above picture was taken. I don't know when.

Barb:

No guards at all.

Cod today:

Again, completely different.

TorpX · 09-21-15, 08:41 PM

Apparently, the Clemson-class DD's had them also.

I couldn't find a good picture of one, but Roscoe's Destroyer Operations book has a drawing of early war Clemsons with them.

ColonelSandersLite · 09-21-15, 08:45 PM

Never knew that, but since you bring it up: You can see them clearly on the stern in this photo.

Edit:
And here's one with a different POV (different ship)

ShotMagnet · 04-17-17, 08:46 AM

Elsewhere in this thread it's mentioned that heavy seas can be felt even as deep as 100 feet. My question: since torpedoes of the period commonly ran only a dozen or twenty feet below the surface, how true could they be expected to run in heavy seas?

Could they be launched from much deeper, then assume pre-set depth during their run and therefore mitigate how heavy seas might affect them?

Shot

Sailor Steve · 04-17-17, 10:11 AM

They couldn't. Heavy seas were the bane of submarines in WW1 and WW2. Torpedoes could "broach", or break the surface and then dive deep and lose control, or they could break the surface and then explode on hitting the water again. Both Germans and Americans had problems early in the war with torpedoes running too deep on the best of day. Heavy seas made it worse.

According to Peter Pad field's War Beneath The Sea or The Battle of the Atlantic, by Terry Hughes and John Costello (It might be either one - it's been a long time since I read them, and neither's index is helpful in this matter), sometimes in really bad weather an entire convoy would heave to and maintain position, all pointed into the seaway, knowing that no U-boat could attack in those conditions.

As to your second question, also no. The inner torpedo loading door opens inward, and with the outer doors open the pressure at anything deeper than periscope depth could force the inner door open. On top of that, firing on a sonar bearing only was tried by the Americans early in the war and found to be much more difficult than anticipated. So difficult, in fact, that it never worked in actual practice. You would have to take a periscope sighting, and by the time you reached 100 feet or so the solution would be so old you would have pretty much no chance of hitting your target.

So submariners didn't like foul weather any more than the surface sailors did. The only difference was that the sub guys could ride out the storm in relative comfort.

ShotMagnet · 04-22-17, 07:59 PM

Thanls, SS. Biding my time and watching YT vids of people playing SH 4 while I await my own copy of the game, I've noticed that a lot of people battle-surface on wounded targets and often elect to administer the coup de grace with the deck gun.

Was this a common practice? I wouldn't think so, but -shock though this will come to some of you- I don't know everything.

Shot

Sniper297 · 04-22-17, 08:14 PM

According to a lot of the historical books I've read (try your local library non fiction section, maybe you can learn everything) it was pretty common, not only to finish off damaged ships but to sink small ones that weren't worth a torpedo. Sometimes it backfired, I recently read an account of a gun attack on a sampan which turned out to have more and heavier weapons than the sub.

As for the torpedoes, I was in a heavy helicopter anti-submarine squadron, and we had 3 incidents on the same exercise of a Mark 46 torpedo running up the backside of a wave and flying into the air. I didn't personally see these, but the pilots claimed they flew up right through the rotor arc without hitting any of the blades.

09-21-15, 12:28 PM	#1
ColonelSandersLite Captain Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 481 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 3	Also worth mentioning. If you look at pictures of the prop guards, it's very obvious that there are a lot of variations of them. Compare: Notice that the guard rails are very flat. 2 pairs of cross braces. The lower set is almost horizontal and the top set is heavily angled down. I believe the vertical bar there is a temporary construction support, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Here's a couple of photos from the wreckage of the grunion: Notice that the cross braces on the topside are nearly horizontal and the bottom braces are angled sharply, the opposite of the above. Also notice that the forward side is angled more than the stern side. Again, the opposite of permit. Silversides: Just completely different, I believe that this is the bolt on setup as evidenced by the next photo. Silversides without guards: Silversides Today: Notice the configuration changed sometime after the above picture was taken. I don't know when. Barb: No guards at all. Cod today: Again, completely different. __________________ My SH4 LP Last edited by ColonelSandersLite; 09-21-15 at 01:18 PM.

09-21-15, 08:41 PM	#2
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	Apparently, the Clemson-class DD's had them also. I couldn't find a good picture of one, but Roscoe's Destroyer Operations book has a drawing of early war Clemsons with them.

09-21-15, 08:45 PM	#3
ColonelSandersLite Captain Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 481 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 3	Never knew that, but since you bring it up: You can see them clearly on the stern in this photo. Edit: And here's one with a different POV (different ship) __________________ My SH4 LP Last edited by ColonelSandersLite; 09-21-15 at 09:02 PM.

04-17-17, 10:11 AM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	They couldn't. Heavy seas were the bane of submarines in WW1 and WW2. Torpedoes could "broach", or break the surface and then dive deep and lose control, or they could break the surface and then explode on hitting the water again. Both Germans and Americans had problems early in the war with torpedoes running too deep on the best of day. Heavy seas made it worse. According to Peter Pad field's War Beneath The Sea or The Battle of the Atlantic, by Terry Hughes and John Costello (It might be either one - it's been a long time since I read them, and neither's index is helpful in this matter), sometimes in really bad weather an entire convoy would heave to and maintain position, all pointed into the seaway, knowing that no U-boat could attack in those conditions. As to your second question, also no. The inner torpedo loading door opens inward, and with the outer doors open the pressure at anything deeper than periscope depth could force the inner door open. On top of that, firing on a sonar bearing only was tried by the Americans early in the war and found to be much more difficult than anticipated. So difficult, in fact, that it never worked in actual practice. You would have to take a periscope sighting, and by the time you reached 100 feet or so the solution would be so old you would have pretty much no chance of hitting your target. So submariners didn't like foul weather any more than the surface sailors did. The only difference was that the sub guys could ride out the storm in relative comfort. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

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04-17-17, 08:46 AM	#4
ShotMagnet Mate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Earth Posts: 53 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Elsewhere in this thread it's mentioned that heavy seas can be felt even as deep as 100 feet. My question: since torpedoes of the period commonly ran only a dozen or twenty feet below the surface, how true could they be expected to run in heavy seas? Could they be launched from much deeper, then assume pre-set depth during their run and therefore mitigate how heavy seas might affect them? Shot

04-22-17, 07:59 PM	#6
ShotMagnet Mate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Earth Posts: 53 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Thanls, SS. Biding my time and watching YT vids of people playing SH 4 while I await my own copy of the game, I've noticed that a lot of people battle-surface on wounded targets and often elect to administer the coup de grace with the deck gun. Was this a common practice? I wouldn't think so, but -shock though this will come to some of you- I don't know everything. Shot

04-22-17, 08:14 PM	#7
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	According to a lot of the historical books I've read (try your local library non fiction section, maybe you can learn everything) it was pretty common, not only to finish off damaged ships but to sink small ones that weren't worth a torpedo. Sometimes it backfired, I recently read an account of a gun attack on a sampan which turned out to have more and heavier weapons than the sub. As for the torpedoes, I was in a heavy helicopter anti-submarine squadron, and we had 3 incidents on the same exercise of a Mark 46 torpedo running up the backside of a wave and flying into the air. I didn't personally see these, but the pilots claimed they flew up right through the rotor arc without hitting any of the blades.