Europe's migrant problem

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

And as my friend Oberon likes to point out: you've got to be careful not to generalise.

Neal, does this mean I have to get my mullet cut off?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Dowly

We really take what we can, we are just 5 million people after all. We got our own problems, yet the refugees seemingly take the priority.

Ehhh... what is this woman on about then!?
From what she said I understood you do the opposite.
Well, politicians... why even bother...

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by August

Well I don't believe we ever promised to "deliver" them democracy and liberties but rather we provided the opportunity for them to give those things to themselves.

You're right that there was no direct promise but I think the impression was (deliberately) created.

Apart from this, history has given us a lesson in the last decade(s) (see Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya just as examples) that military interventions alone - even with attached nation building (with a lot of goodwill also from NGOs) do not work. You need complete control over a failed nation, like the U.S. has done it after WWII in part of Europe (and especially in my country). But there it was much easier, since there was a developed society having a common basis (religion, economics etc.) and a common foe.

You do find this in the problem zones today.

And I think this is the root of the migrant problem: There is simply no concept how to change this, since all know what the price would be (and I do not talking about the money but about the loss of lives and the possibility that whole regions are completely be destabilized). In the end all are waiting for a miracle to occur or hoping for the distant future to change things.

Maybe there are alternatives ?

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I am an American too.

No you're not, you're a Texan.

Real 'Muricans drive Harley Davidsons not Jap bikes!

/Generalization

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Maybe there are alternatives ?

If there is a solution, I suspect it's a very expensive, highly complex, multi-faceted, multi-generational one. Which is why no politician will go near it unless there is no other choice.

It's funny. Most the world is currently outraged over the poignant photo of a drowned toddler washed on a beach, and we should be. But then a few months ago we were supposedly outraged over the videos of several good and selfless aide workers being beheaded. And then a video of combat pilot being incinerated alive in a cage. Some are outraged at photos of centuries old archaeological treasures being erased from history. We seem to have a lot of capacity for outrage while not doing much about it but grumbling. Which is why I suspect the continuing reaction to the refugee crisis will just be to muddle through.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

If there is a solution, I suspect it's a very expensive, highly complex, multi-faceted, multi-generational one. Which is why no politician will go near it unless there is no other choice.

That pretty much sums it up when it comes to World politics, they rather sit and see if it'll blow over instead of doing the right thing.

It's funny. Most the world is currently outraged over the poignant photo of a drowned toddler washed on a beach, and we should be. But then a few months ago we were supposedly outraged over the videos of several good and selfless aide workers being beheaded. And then a video of combat pilot being incinerated alive in a cage. Some are outraged at photos of centuries old archaeological treasures being erased from history. We seem to have a lot of capacity for outrage while not doing much about it but grumbling. Which is why I suspect the continuing reaction to the refugee crisis will just be to muddle through.

This week's hot news is next week's old news. Sensational Media at it's finest. Whilst the toddler is very tragic and sad but why did it get so much attention whilst another 4 young children that drowned earlier just a week or so back didn't?



and yeh you're right , all we do after seeying these images is grumble and shake our fists a bit.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

This week's hot news is next week's old news. Sensational Media at it's finest. Whilst the toddler is very tragic and sad but why did it get so much attention whilst another 4 young children that drowned earlier just a week or so back didn't?

Wow. Those are shocking pictures too, even with the censored faces. However, show a couple hundred and people's eyes will glaze over. I guess Stalin was right about statistics.

I suspect it will take a monumental event similar to that of a rotten roof caving in on us to get any real action. We're content with the annoying drip, drip, drip in the meantime.

Sort of reminds me of of our reaction to climate change in that regard.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

If there is a solution, I suspect it's a very expensive, highly complex, multi-faceted, multi-generational one. Which is why no politician will go near it unless there is no other choice.

Always come down to there god "MONEY" that must be worshiped. Its a lot more easy to bow down and worship money than getting off your fat arse and doing the right thing.

Originally Posted by Torplexed

It's funny. Most the world is currently outraged over the poignant photo of a drowned toddler washed on a beach, and we should be.

Typical media they only do this to boost ratings, children are dying doing filthy jobs, living on the streets and rails around the world which the media choose not to bother. And now politician's must be seen doing something, why now after this shocking footage? Vote grabbing Bastards the lot of them.

I'm going to stop there and leave this thread before.....

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

I suspect it will take a monumental event similar to that of a rotten roof caving in on us to get any real action. We're content with the annoying drip, drip, drip in the meantime.

Sort of reminds me of of our reaction to climate change in that regard.

I think we in the West are in the final stage of what all empires have gone through. We're sated, live in peace, have become decadent and have stopped fighting for ourselves and don't accept casualties among our own people or responsibility for what we do in the world. We're just looking for the easy way and that usually is to give up and let happen whatever happens. Now we'll just stand by and watch as others take action. Sooner or later those actions will remove us from the top seat and we won't do anything about it.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Now we'll just stand by and watch as others take action. Sooner or later those actions will remove us from the top seat and we won't do anything about it.

On the other hand, we've seen the reward waiting for a few of those who decide to go out and make a difference.



I must confess I don't have the answer. We had a great crusade against fascism 70 years ago and no sooner than it was over than the pot started boiling over again. Certainly, after several botched interventions in the Middle East no one is in the mood for one now. Yeah, and you don't want to use the word, crusade.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Except, unlike you, little children of the old world, our dear colonial spawn, we have learned first hand what war is. You apparently didn't.
So ''it takes one to know one'' you know African warlords, not European nations. Which would explain why everytime you start talking about Europe you're more wrong than me talking about Martian geology.

Honestly I don't understand what you are driving at. Are you are saying Europe learned its lesson and has nothing to do with the war in Syria which is causing 11 MILLION of its inhabitants to cross into its borders?

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Honestly I don't understand what you are driving at. Are you are saying Europe learned its lesson and has nothing to do with the war in Syria which is causing 11 MILLION of its inhabitants to cross into its borders?

Of course you don't. Your previous record on anything European tells me you can't point Europe on the map of Europe, let alone be a euro-expert on this forum in regards to the geopolitical influence Europe can exert in todays world.
Europe has nothing to do with the current crisis. We chereed the iminent downfall of Assad since Assad is a dangerous moron the likes Europe managed to get rid of after the cold war. But half of Syria wouldn't have been swallowed by ISIL if ISIL wouldn't come to being as a reaction to a power vaccum left by your little adventure in Iraq. And leaving a few hundred thousand dead is not the biggest problem. Extremists have a recruitment drive when you destroy the lives of a few million. Europe didn't turn a middle eastern country into a breeding nest for terrorists, the US did. And don't count that little poodle Tony Blair as Europe assisting the war.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Of course you don't. Your previous record on anything European tells me you can't point Europe on the map of Europe, let alone be a euro-expert on this forum in regards to the geopolitical influence Europe can exert in todays world.
Europe has nothing to do with the current crisis. We chereed the iminent downfall of Assad since Assad is a dangerous moron the likes Europe managed to get rid of after the cold war. But half of Syria wouldn't have been swallowed by ISIL if ISIL wouldn't come to being as a reaction to a power vaccum left by your little adventure in Iraq. And leaving a few hundred thousand dead is not the biggest problem. Extremists have a recruitment drive when you destroy the lives of a few million. Europe didn't turn a middle eastern country into a breeding nest for terrorists, the US did. And don't count that little poodle Tony Blair as Europe assisting the war.

Nothing to do with it? OK, gee my mistake. But I realize ISIS isnt the only ones fighting the war to take Assad down. They may receive more press, they may possibley be the most brutal. But they certainly are not the only ones waging war against a leader of a sovereign nation you joined in on the call to have removed. That call for removal is IMO no different than coming right out and saying I approve of ISIS and all the others fighting to take Assad down. Now in your zeal to remove Assad you have a big portion of the 11 million refugees because of a war in SYRIA (not iraq).

[Betonov]

The famous black and white wiew of the world. Axis and allies. Either you're with us or against us.
So me thinking that someone should hang Assad from a lamp post means I also air dropped a t-72 to ISIL. Europe didn't move a finger when the revolution agaisnt Assad began. Quite contrary, our goverments were heavily critisised for not doing anything.