Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by kranz

the latest news is that Ukrainian positions in Krematorsk were attacked with the Tornado system rockets - in service only in the russian army.

Would love to hear how they ascertained that Tornado was firing the rockets.

[ikalugin]

Skybird, the existing system did not follow the principles layed out by me at the same time, thus such system did not exist so far. If you wish I could go into details.

kranz, Minsk agreements were violated by both sides, example of such violation by the Ukrainians was them keeping the Donetsk airport (which was agreed to be given to the separatist control).

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Then your question is provocative, as in the article it is clearly stated that the Russian actions within the Ukrainian crisis (the support of separatist forces falls under that category) was in nature reactionary to actions of other parties.

Thus further escalation by those parties would lead not to deterence of Russia, but to an reactionary escalation.

I understand your point but it seems to me that Russia has escalated the situation already. Those sure aren't captured Ukrainian artillery and heavy weapons that the rebels are using so how can it be provocative to help Kiev in a similar manner?

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

I understand your point but it seems to me that Russia has escalated the situation already. Those sure aren't captured Ukrainian artillery and heavy weapons that the rebels are using so how can it be provocative to help Kiev in a similar manner?

Which in turn was a response to the actions of the Western/Kiev side, this spiral (of escalation) could be tracked back to the Maidan events of the 2013-2014 winter.

Note that the activities of Voentorg (and Northern Wind) were directly linked to the actions by West/Kiev and we're reactionary (ie a build up of CTO forces would be countered by supplies to separatists, ect).
Then there is the old Minsk framework, which neither side truly followed, essentially neither side did any active steps towards implementing that framework (even though it was Russia which was accused of all ills and violations).

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Which in turn was a response to the actions of the Western/Kiev side, this spiral (of escalation) could be tracked back to the Maidan events of the 2013-2014 winter.

Note that the activities of Voentorg (and Northern Wind) were directly linked to the actions by West/Kiev and we're reactionary (ie a build up of CTO forces would be countered by supplies to separatists, ect).
Then there is the old Minsk framework, which neither side truly followed, essentially neither side did any active steps towards implementing that framework (even though it was Russia which was accused of all ills and violations).

All of this would make sense...if Ukraine was part of Russia. I don't see western Troops marching around in Ukraine. I don't see Leopard and Abrams tanks in Ukrainian service. I don't see western artillery systems in the arsenal of the Ukrainian forces. So what exactly did Moscow "react" to in a sovereign country that justified it's actions?

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Would love to hear how they ascertained that Tornado was firing the rockets.

the article is in Polish so far. you gonna learn Polish or wait for the translation?
please let me know.

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Which in turn was a response to the actions of the Western/Kiev side, this spiral (of escalation) could be tracked back to the Maidan events of the 2013-2014 winter.

right.
Maidan, CIA, Polish services training Ukrainians, plots, skimming and dealing behind russia's back...you sure you don't need a doc?

Originally Posted by Schroeder

All of this would make sense...if Ukraine was part of Russia. I don't see western Troops marching around in Ukraine. I don't see Leopard and Abrams tanks in Ukrainian service. I don't see western artillery systems in the arsenal of the Ukrainian forces. So what exactly did Moscow "react" to in a sovereign country that justified it's actions?

this.

obviously it's russia who is escalating the conflict. I can't really imagine how a bunch of paramilitary freaks could wage war against a regular army WITHOUT support of another regular army. Basically, most of the gear used by separatists IS russian. I know you've been fed with lies that 'separatists captured a lot of ukrainian gear and now they are using it' as well as 'these were ukrainian rockets which shot down air malaysia'.

A few days ago I saw a documentary about russian mothers who lost their sons at Lubiansk, Donetsk. At least 80 funerals took place at one time in Pskov (Russia) around August. Those who died were the soldiers of this unit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76th_Gu...sault_Division
Mothers were paid not to talk about their losses, foreign journalists trying to visit the graves are treated as trespassers and beaten up.
Western propaganda, huh?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by kranz

the article is in Polish so far. you gonna learn Polish or wait for the translation?
please let me know.

If you could translate the key parts, I would appreciate it.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

All of this would make sense...if Ukraine was part of Russia. I don't see western Troops marching around in Ukraine. I don't see Leopard and Abrams tanks in Ukrainian service. I don't see western artillery systems in the arsenal of the Ukrainian forces. So what exactly did Moscow "react" to in a sovereign country that justified it's actions?

The possibility of those things happening, I would wager. That and the possibility of having US interceptor missiles so close to the ICBM silos near Kursk and Moscow.
It was rather ham-fistedly done though, and Russia is paying the price for that, I just hope that our economic blockade doesn't prove to be a bit Versailles...

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

CCIP you may find this:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/09/...rsPicksRS2%2F9
Article of interest to you.

This is a good one.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by kranz

A few days ago I saw a documentary about russian mothers who lost their sons at Lubiansk, Donetsk. At least 80 funerals took place at one time in Pskov (Russia) around August. Those who died were the soldiers of this unit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76th_Gu...sault_Division
Mothers were paid not to talk about their losses, foreign journalists trying to visit the graves are treated as trespassers and beaten up.

Just curious, where did you get the number of 80? I followed that story (beatings and slashed tires and all), and I think the highest number I ever heard was 5. I don't know about foreign reports, but Russian activists trying to uncover that story ended up with no more than two dozen graves and names (and probably as many black eyes, slashed tires, and death threats) that they'd located in all of Russia in August.

There were as many as 80 casualties reported in that unit, but the word is they were buried mostly in the Ukraine to avoid the word spreading out.

[mapuc]

Let see if I got this right

about an hour ago I saw on Danish TV, one of the journalist talking about military solution to help Ukraine. Some of the NATO's members have speculated in that

He mentioned Poland, who could as some kind of last resort-Give military assists to Ukraine.

OK Poland feel threaten by the civil war in Ukraine(Russia)- If they chose side then they will for sure be threaten by the other part in the civil war.

Markus

[kranz]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Just curious, where did you get the number of 80?

There were as many as 80 casualties reported in that unit, but the word is they were buried mostly in the Ukraine to avoid the word spreading out.

in a short documentary made by two journalists from one of the Polish TV stations. I doubt it has been translated or sth.
The journalist talked to two of the mothers and some villagers from the suburbs of Pskov. They stated that one day, after scheduled funerals had taken place, military came, accompanied by (possibly) friends of the soldiers and the whole procedure of around 80 funerals was carried out.

227 according to this article https://openrussia.org/post/view/1772/
250 according to another one in Polish
1500 according to an organization held by Russian mothers who lost their sons.

[ikalugin]

Heh, Gruz 200 founder (and the Gruz 200 initiative) is still seen as a credible source, even after what Shariy did to her.

As a clarification - she was inventing the lists, both of Russian and Ukrainian dead, and was extorting money from Ukrainian citizens for various services (ranging from assisting transfer of real PoWs to getting dead people out of fictional Russian death camps).

Back on the topic though - what happened in Ukraine was a violent take over of power, which was completely supported (and in part organised) by Western parties to further their geopolitical objectives without regarding Russian (or local for that matter) interests. I mean no one now even talks about what was in that association agreement and if it was at all beneficial to Ukraine (it was not).
The south/eastern communities (and Russia as their geopolitical back up) have reacted symmetrically. If in western/central areas the local government offices and armouries are captured, so would happen in the south/east. If the new central government would crack down on those south/eastern communities using their armed forces, we would arm the resistance. And so on and so forth, actions of the south/east (and Russia) were always reactive.
Thus, speaking in terms of ultimatums and applying further pressure would not solve the conflict by deterring Russia - it would escalate it.

Morever - providing arms to the Ukrainians would not bring any immediate (or even medium term) benefits, as the core issues are within the poor organisation of the CTO Forces and lack of reform, not lack of modern weapons.

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Which in turn was a response to the actions of the Western/Kiev side, this spiral (of escalation) could be tracked back to the Maidan events of the 2013-2014 winter.

Isn't that comparing apples and oranges? The internal affairs of a nation are a far cry from annexing a part of another country.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Isn't that comparing apples and oranges? The internal affairs of a nation are a far cry from annexing a part of another country.

In the 80s: Honduras? Panama? Nicaragua? Iraq 2003? Vietnam? That were internal affairs of those states. But that did not stop the US from massive interferences and weapons deliveries, even interventions and all-out war. Nor has the CIA be shy of interfering fundamentally in the Ukraine.

We also recall the massive US support for dictatorships and torture regimes in South America. The opportunistic support for brutla reigmes in africa if it served and serves American interest in resources. The close alliances with terror-supporters in the Muslim world.

America is not more and not less an honest broker than Russia is. And both act for their very own interests. Morals and justice have nothing to do with it, but geostrategic self interest: and that includes to damage the other fore the purpose of just weakening the other.

I do not favour the one over the other. I call both by their name: egoist actors. Morals have nothing to do with it, that is just propaganda for the plebs, to make them rally behind oneself. America does like that, and Russia does like that and probaly even more successful (media say never has Russians' hostile sentiments against the West been so intense like today).

If Russia would deliver military grade weapons to the cartels in Mexico, or would stage a coup in Canada to topple the government and implement a Kremlin-friendly one - the US would not stand by and do nothing, but would do EVERYTHING necessary to prevent or reverse that.

Don't even try to convince me or many others that you wouldn't. You would, and you know it. Thats as certain as it was clear that the US would not tolerate Russian missiles on Cuba. At no cost would the US accept Russian troops and sensors on Mexican and Canadian soil ten kilometers behind the border, and Russian warships and SSNs and fighters and bombers having a base at the Lake Erie (if thta makes military sense... ).

So lecturing other about the wrong in doing what your nation itself has done repeatedly, and is doing until today, is not really convincing. The US has not the moral credibility to do so anymore. And I told you that before - already in 2003.

What Mexico or Canada is for you, Ukraine and Easteuropean states are for Russia. The European states they already lost, naively believing in promises they had been given, and being mocked for by Americna dipolmats who told them to shut up, the promises were never turned into treaties. You betrayed their good willingness there. So now do not compolain that they do not make the same mistake again anymore, and act prememtoively when America diplomacy very obviously has started to push once again to bring Ukraine into NATO and the US fleet into Sewastopol therefore. What you would never accept with Canada or Mexico, you nevertheless demand the Russians to accept regarding the Ukraine, after you already betrayed their trust over the neutral puffer the Easteuropeans states were promised to remain? That is double standards.

These double standards maybe is what emotionally angers me most in all this. This hilarious display of hypocrisy and moral haughtiness.

---

I also remind of the example of Georgia again. Like there, the leadership in Kiev today is none we should wish to deal with. Not at all. The West had placed its bets on the wrong horse in Georgia, and the EU even admitted that afterwards, shutting the door for him and ignoring him. Washington ignores the bitter truth until today: that Saakashvili was the villain behind the wanted escalation. That it wants Georgia again into NATO shows, that it is pure powerpolitics that has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with justice or moral rights. The historical supression of the Abchasians with brute force by the Georgians until the war, plays no role in American reasoning, too. The moral card only gets played when it serves America's powerpolitical interests. If it is more opportune to act immorally, America does not hesitate to do so.

So much for morals!