Terrorist attack in Paris on French magazine

[Skybird]

And news from germany:


"As representatives of Western values and toleraance
we humbly apologize for our freedom of press and
freedom of speech and mind."

"And your sense of humour -
who apologises for your sense of humour?"

The creator of this cartoon, Ralf König, is one of Germany's leading cartoonists. He has now withdrawn this cartoon from an exhibition on Facebook, saying that he "might have gone one step too far", and worried by the chance of having enraged fanatics. He said: "Das muss aussehen wie Schwanz einziehen und Rückzieher, und ist es letztlich ja auch. Ich bin nicht stolz darauf, aber auch nicht interessiert, jetzt von den Medien nach vorne geschoben zu werden, da habe ich seinerzeit im Zusammenhang mit dem Karikaturenstreit um Jyllands Posten bereits ungute Erfahrungen gemacht.“ ("This must look like showing the white feather, and falling back, and in the end that is true, yes. I am not proud of it, but I am also not interested in being pushed forward by the media once again, like back then in context with the cartoons conflict by the Jyllands Poisten, that were pretty bad experiences.")

Na bitte. Funktioniert doch.

Some weeks ago, Dietrich Nuhr has been sued over charges of hate-speech by a Muslim fundamentalist for "repeatedly offending Islam". Dietrich Nuhr is one of the very best maybe currently even the best stage-satirist in germany. He is very intelligent and witty in his word games, and I do not know how often he has send me into bursting laughter. His strikes against Islam were anhythign but racist, but targetted the ideological fundament at the basis of Islam, and in a very stylish and well-toned manner. He has completely rejected to follow his persecutoir'S demands, and even went into charging mode, attacking his backwardly simplemindedness and fanatism in his unique intelligent witty way of using words and sentences as weapons. He did not waver once second, held his shows in huge - now sold-out - theatres and townhalls, gave interviews in which he took a resolute stand against the petrified mindset of Islam, and accepted not even the mildest hint for maybe considering to accept compromise. He won the well-deserved fruits for his determination, the court refused permission to bring the charges to trial.

That's the fighting spirit, Herr König. Else you have no right to call yourself a satirist anymore. Or take the comment that Penguin quoted, the chief editor of German satire magazine Titanic, he listed it some pages earlier in this thread: "A bloodbath like at Charlie could not happen with us. We are only six editors." - Brilliant!

BTW, there now also is a campaign running, "jesuisjeuf" - I am Jewish. Due to the Jewish supermarket terror attack, killing four. For some reasons so far that campaign does not attract as much sympathy and attention like jesuischarlie. Maybe because appeasers of Islam often tend to be more or less antisemitic, too, may it be for opportunism or for conviction.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by em2nought

So, you're saying there is no way to beat them unless we get rid of "all" of them? I don't buy that. It might take more than two, but at some number they're going to rethink their position. I'd probably give them advanced warning dropping cartoon leaflets of what's coming if that softens your opinion of me.

There is a way to beat them, but not in ten years, not even in fifty, the way to beat them will involve over a century (maybe two) of vigilance, sacrifice, and bloodshed. It's a war of attrition, and remember, as attrition wars go, our losses have been very light indeed, compared to the losses the enemy have taken. The key is to starve their supply of fresh recruits, cut off their support base, turn their own people against them, and slowly they will die away, not permanently, because you can't get rid of hate or fear, but they will not pose as significant a threat as they do now.

There is no magic button solution, there is no quick exit or blitzkrieg strategy, any attempt to take them will just backfire.
We're in this for the long haul, and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. People on both sides are going to do some stupid things, evil things, and we're going to see both extremes of humanity displayed before us.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I say it's OK to drop the bomb...the day they have developed it, so it only kills these brain dead radical people, whether it's religious or political.

.....Not before.

Markus

Who knows, one day they might develop such a biological agent that dulls the brain into obedience, overnight it could put the entire Middle East into the submission of whoever dropped it.
Would that be a good thing, though?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

There is a way to beat them, but not in ten years, not even in fifty, the way to beat them will involve over a century (maybe two) of vigilance, sacrifice, and bloodshed. It's a war of attrition, and remember, as attrition wars go, our losses have been very light indeed, compared to the losses the enemy have taken. The key is to starve their supply of fresh recruits, cut off their support base, turn their own people against them, and slowly they will die away, not permanently, because you can't get rid of hate or fear, but they will not pose as significant a threat as they do now.

One again I remind of the youthbulge theory, claiming that societies/cultures are the more aggressive the higher the surplus in young males is in the population's age structure. Heihnsoh, for whose writings and comments of contemporary politics I have high respect, got plenty of fire for it, because he does not mind political correctness and Europhilia, but trusts in the convicing power of statistically correct established empiry - and you cannot argue with his numbers. For demographic reasons, Muslim societies will be driven by an extreme surplus by young males for another 50 years from now on. Not before then their relative share in their societies will have dropped so much that their influence and interest and power to drive things aggressively for expansion will have shrunk so much that their society as a whole will fall to rest once again, and lack the drive to push for offensive conquest. And then the problems of overaging society structures that Japan and the West already are hampered by, will hit them as well.

Until then, we will need to live and deal with ongoing Islamic expansion and aggressive moves.

[Betonov]

Sky, you forgot one thing.

The west will reach a breaking point. People are going to scared enough to start voting in en masse far right wingers. Laws will be passed to close the borders, up the internal surveillance, immigration laws are going to get discriminatory and deportations an everyday occurance. And it wont stop with radicals. First your average Ahmed, including your Iranian friend, then eastern europeans, then anyone not fitting into their national ideas.

Europe is going to be cleansed of islam, open borders and a free flow of ideas.
We're going back to the old closed system of tribes we experienced for the entire history exempt last 60 years and to tell you the truth, I rather have a constant threat of a radical blowing me up than the prison Europe is destined to become if we let fear of something, that claimed the lives of faaaaaaaar less people than the European wars we were once so good at, dictate our lives.
50 muslims next door are better than one far right winger in the capital.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Sky, you forgot one thing.

The west will reach a breaking point. People are going to scared enough to start voting in en masse far right wingers. Laws will be passed to close the borders, up the internal surveillance, immigration laws are going to get discriminatory and deportations an everyday occurance. And it wont stop with radicals. First your average Ahmed, including your Iranian friend, then eastern europeans, then anyone not fitting into their national ideas.

Europe is going to be cleansed of islam, open borders and a free flow of ideas.
We're going back to the old closed system of tribes we experienced for the entire history exempt last 60 years and to tell you the truth, I rather have a constant threat of a radical blowing me up than the prison Europe is destined to become if we let fear of something, that claimed the lives of faaaaaaaar less people than the European wars we were once so good at, dictate our lives.
50 muslims next door are better than one far right winger in the capital.

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

[Oberon]

The problem is, moderate solutions take longer to implement, they take longer to have results, people in todays society want results yesterday.

[Dan D]

Originally Posted by Skybird

One again I remind of the youthbulge theory, claiming that societies/cultures are the more aggressive the higher the surplus in young males is in the population's age structure. Heihnsoh, for whose writings and comments of contemporary politics I have high respect, got plenty of fire for it, because he does not mind political correctness and Europhilia, but trusts in the convicing power of statistically correct established empiry - and you cannot argue with his numbers. For demographic reasons, Muslim societies will be driven by an extreme surplus by young males for another 50 years from now on. Not before then their relative share in their societies will have dropped so much that their influence and interest and power to drive things aggressively for expansion will have shrunk so much that their society as a whole will fall to rest once again, and lack the drive to push for offensive conquest. And then the problems of overaging society structures that Japan and the West already are hampered by, will hit them as well.

Until then, we will need to live and deal with ongoing Islamic expansion and aggressive moves.

Have you solved your issues with your neighbour by now, Otto?
Let me guees, you have sunk him in the sewage pit of your own.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by em2nought

So, you're saying there is no way to beat them unless we get rid of "all" of them? I don't buy that. It might take more than two, but at some number they're going to rethink their position. I'd probably give them advanced warning dropping cartoon leaflets of what's coming if that softens your opinion of me.

Look, em2, I know where you're coming from, nuking the enemy sounds great, but it's important to realize that millions of Muslims want NO part of this jihad crap, in fact, they are being killed by the islamic extremists in greater numbers than westerners. Try to picture a Muslim man in the park, with his daughter playing on a swing, and they look up to see your nuclear bomb. Is that necessary to kill a few thousand crazies spread out all over the world? The last time we used nukes we were at war with an entire nation, millions of enemy combatants. This is not the same situation.

If the current struggle escalates to anything near the level and Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany, don't worry, we will bring the big toys.

Originally Posted by Schroeder

On whom? Do you want to wipe out entire cities because their idiot leaders developed something they were not supposed to have? They've got to be stopped before that (knowledge would leak before that thing was actually build anyway so it would be too late) and without nuking someone. Nukes are the very last resort and in my opinion unsuitable to deal with radicals. Too much fallout, too much collateral damage.

Exactly, a last resort, for the proper situation. We don't want millions of people as collateral damage.

Originally Posted by Schroeder

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

I don't know everything about France's National Front party, but I don't think they are Nazis. A strong anti-immigrant stance does not equate to fascism.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

Exactly. Sky may be correct, we are to soft on them. But not on the religion but known troublemakers. Sending them back to plot under rocks in Syria is going to lower terrorist attack chances and perhaps not give a rally point to some hotheads still sitting on the fence.

But our brave politicians, that can't differentiate their own backside from their empty heads, can't enact laws that will lower that threat and raise economic standards to everyone (radicalism is lower when people are spoiled silly), all the while Adolf II & co. has an agenda and a plan and all they need is a population scared stupid to vote them in.

And then by-by good old times when our biggest fear was something with a less chance of killing us than a gas leak

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

In Germany, and Europe, since decades migration policy has been made against what the people wanted by majority.

The gains of more right-leanign factions recently in Europe, are a result of that. People see that the establishement does nto act on their behalf. So they try other options. Thesd eothe roptions may be ratters, or reasonable people, but what makes them attrative to these moiddle grounds of society is that they are not the established poltical caste and its plots.

In Germany, there have recently formed up two such groups. The Euro-criticla party of AfD, Alternative für Deutschland. Founded by an economis prfessor against the Euro madness, while at the same time swearing to be loyal to a EU-dominated Europe (which is a contradiction, imo, and thus the AfD wa snot consdered by me for longer than just a week as a project for which I maybe would enagge myself. The party meanwhile has allowed to attract a far greater diversity of opinions that can be welcomed by the AfD: especially apparent rightwing extremist, some white supremacists, and a whole gang of neurotic narcissists have hijacked the party, it now is a kiondergarden where everybody seems to fight against verybody, the former founder is in danger to be pushed out of power and influence, and the only man of name and competence engaging himself for the AfD, the former head of the German Industrie-und Handwerkskammer, Olaf Henkel, almost has resigned and given up, regretting that he ever took the step to jpoin the party. A bitter fight for power is paralysing it all. I expect not much of the AfD.

The other movement forming up is called Pegida (dont ask me, I never cared to find out what that means). Originally it was a movement that took a front against the islmaization hijacking more and more freedom and tolerance in Germany, and the relkated poltical submission and correctness. But again, it also has been infiltrated and infested apparently by Nazis, rightwingers and according extremesits. Pegida has may opinion faces, it seems, some are Nazi, some are as argument- and ifnormaiton focussed anti-Islamic like I am myxself. But fopr peope like me, Pegida again canot be an option, due to its inability to fight its growing inflitration by Nazis, and I take no prisoners, when it comers no Nazis.

At the same time, the number of racist attacks by Arabs and Muslims against Jews is rising, like in many other European co9utnries, too, while at the same time the icnidents of violence against "Muslim obkjects"n namloes mosques, also is growing, for the most not committed by Nazis, but "ordinary" Islam-critical people who feel not being taken serious by established politics.

As one commentator some days ago wrote in the German press in reply to some b astard of an estalbioshed career-parasite from the poltical establishment who called of people in Pegida a "disease": Pegida is not the disease, Pegidsa is just the symptom. The symptom of an arrogant, doisconnected and absolutistically acting political caste that for years and decades now thinks it must only bribe the mob for elections, and in the three years in between can do what it wants in complete ignorance of people's will.

The treaties for bringing Turkish guest workers to Germany that were signed in the middle of last century, where refused to be signed by the German coalition government of back then, originally. The - formally socialist!!! - minister for economy back then said that the Islamic culture and the canon of values in the West would be absolutely incompatible. Wowh! Today he would be called a Nazi, if not something worse. America however had other plans, it wanted to bind Turkey deeper into NATO, it wanted to stage new weapons in Turkey, and for that theTurks demanded a price: access to the European labor market so that they would have a relief valve for the pandemic poverty harassing its huge population in extremelyx poor Anatolia. The Americans started to lobby for Turkish guest worker treaties, and finally more or less openly blackmailed the German government. The chancellor of that time also was of the opinion that economcs should not be run by the rules of economics, but should be seen as a tool of running foreign politics, an old conflict that already started in the bitter antipathy between Adenauer and Ludwig Erhard (the latter being one of the very rare modern German politics for whom I have a certain amount of respect), who also held totally different views over this issue. Finally, the ministry for economics and labour that had the responsibility for the negotiations with Turkey, was thrown out of the deal-making, to bypass its resistence, and the whole issue was been given to the foreign ministry, that then enforced the signing of the according treaties.

That treaty always had included a passage, from beginning on, about a timely limitation of guest workers' stay in germany, I think a maximum of 8 or 10 years - then they would had to go back. Any many others from Greece, Italy namely indeed left, those few who stayed nevertheless, integrated very well, and mostly successfully. The treaty with Turkey also said a following of their families to germany orginally was not planned, in fact the treaty explicitly forbid that.

We know today what had come of all that. the treaty was like so many others: less worth than some leafs of toilet paper, used. And when seeing how easily politicians lie and forge laws and treaties, bend and erode them, for example regarding the Euro union, maybe this should not have been a surprise.

Point is: migration poltics in Germany, and I claim: in most other European countries as well, always have been just a big social engineering experiment, demanded by an elitist minority that stayed to live in its villas far away from the foreigner's slums, and imposed against the will of the majority of the ordinary people.

Americans do not understand this, usually, and probably even cannot understand this. Their nation was build not on the grounds of aleady long existing ethnic and national identiteis that had grown over centuries, even over a millenia, but the US is a nation thrown together by foreigners from just many different places, with no shared sense of identity - the American idnetity of the modern era just had to be created, it diod not grow on the basis of a fomrer existing idnetity (because that one - that of the red man - was almost wiped out). For many Americans, why their way of handling these things in t he US does not work well in Europe, is completely beyond their horizon. And I do not even blame them for it, they cannot understand it, for their nation lacks the needed historical identity-related precondition to enable them to understand that. What would be important, however, is that the nevertheless accept that things do tick differently in other parts of the world, and Europe and America run by different cultural preconditions for sure. What works in America, must not - and often does not! - work in Europe, and the other way around.

---

In the end, it is about this: people over here will grow their tolerance for growing extremism and hostility against foreigner, because their politicians fail them and betray them. I do not hide that this is even true for myself. What can happen to you in bitching and witch-hunting if you violate the official consensus in politically correct opinions, I have experienced often myself in this forum, but in real life as well. I have given up the expectation that any change in political attitude towards Islam with means of peaceful debate in a context of politics an d society, can still be achieved. It is no longer a competition of arguments: it is about resisting or not to a dogmatically waged effort to enforce the continuation of a sociological pet-experiment by mentioned elitist minorities against the legitimate interest of the majority, like the Euro disaster also will be followed until the very last bullet has been fired, and even then the responsibility for the fall will be denied. Me personally, I would decide on a case by case basis whether I would help and assist a Muslim person or family in case they would need help - it would depend on the impression I have of them regarding their integration willingness, and nqwhether they are indeed Muslim (="Koranic"), or not. Koran-swingers and devout Muslims I avoid at all cost, like I also avoid fundamentalist of other religions. I do not move a single finger to assist their interests, claims, assumed rights, or whatever. I don'T want them here, and I do not do anything to help their stay.

And I have been pushed far enough by now that in case of violence against mosques and Muslim culture centres (nightly burnings for example) I would refuse to give any help at all. I do not want Islam in my home place, I am against this ideology, obviously. And I refuse to assist the state enforcing a policy that I oppose, a policy of ongoing, non-discriminating Muslim mass migration into my home country, where the existing Muslim parallel society already gives us enormous problems and has pushed several conflict levels close to breaking points.

For Islamic integration has failed on grande scale in the West. In Sweden. In England. In the Netherlands. In France. In Germany. Everyhwere. It has failed. Or to be closer to the truth: it is an unfolding disaster that changes the faces of our home countries for the worse.

As usual my explcit hint that I am not against migration in general, and that I do not claim we have problems with all migrants. I explicitly say: we have problems with Islamic migration, and while most migrant groups do not give us any trouble and integrate themselves well, time and again we find Muslim migrants to cause us troubles time and again, and their willingness to integrate is significantly smaller, in parts of their population non-existent, than it is the case with other migrant groups. This and nothing else I say, so everybody, keep that exact explanation on your mind. Anyone thinking he must once again stupidily generalise and claim "Skybird hates all migrants in general", is an #*&. I'm so sick and tired of people not taking care to look closely to the details and contexts of what I say, instead putting their own fiction into my mouth. I'm so very sick and tired of it.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And I have been pushed far enough by now that in case of violence against mosques and Muslim culture centres (nightly burnings for example) I would refuse to give any help at all. I do not want Islam in my home place, I am against this ideology, obviously.

“If only one country, for whatever reason, tolerates a Muslim family in it, that family will become the germ center for fresh sedition. If one little Muslim boy survives without any Islamic education, with no mosque and no Islamic school, it [Islam] is in his soul. Even if there had never been a mosque or an Islamic school or an Qu'ran, the Muslim spirit would still exist and exert its influence. It has been there from the beginning and there is no Muslim, not a single one, who does not personify it.”

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Exactly. Sky may be correct, we are to soft on them. But not on the religion but known troublemakers.

The known troublemakers have one thing in common that you and so many people simply prefer to ignore. They all confess and link their motivation to that one and the same religion of theirs. That ideology you cannot comfortably delete from your picture of things, and then think you still have a complete image of the Why-What-Where. You have deleted the most important detail from it. What remains, is no description of reality, but your own fiction.

Just opportunistically deleting any barbary in Muslim ideology and scripture, and then claiming Islam only is what is left after that well-meant cleansing, does not compute, obviously. the barbaric parts in it are parts of it - and the one that has driven Islam around the glove, mostly in a violent drive, more than n anything else. There is literally no major country or place where it was voluntarily embraced, always violence or intimidation, blackmailing or threatened or executed war played a role. And now count how many cultures have seized to exist after they ran into Islam, or Islam ran over them. And count how any religious war have been started by Christian factions against others or against themselves, and how many have been started by islamic factions against others or against themselves. No other religion is responsible for so many civil wars and religious wars against others, like Islam. It leads these statistics by huge margins.I said it so often: its a warrior's and conqueror's ideology. Muhammad was no man of peace, his life proves it. He was a bandit, a warlord, a tyrant and murderer. What kind of religion do you expect to come from such a man?

A German essay on the German way of debating islam - by rejecting the truth about it if it is not wanted:Hit the translate button:
https://translate.google.de/translat...%2F&edit-text=

German original: http://boess.welt.de/2015/01/07/deut...und-der-islam/

[Oberon]

“The internal expurgation of the Islamic spirit is not possible in any platonic way. For the Islamic spirit is the product of the Muslim person. Unless we expel the Islamic people. Unless we expel the Islamic people soon, they will have islamized our people within a very short time.”

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

“If only one country, for whatever reason, tolerates a Muslim family in it, that family will become the germ center for fresh sedition. If one little Muslim boy survives without any Islamic education, with no mosque and no Islamic school, it [Islam] is in his soul. Even if there had never been a mosque or an Islamic school or an Qu'ran, the Muslim spirit would still exist and exert its influence. It has been there from the beginning and there is no Muslim, not a single one, who does not personify it.”

Once becoming its property - it's property for life. At least so Islam claims.

Disagreeing on this is forbidden by threat of death penalty. For life means: for life for sure.

At least so islam thinks/claims/ticks. Apostates may disagree at their own risk.