Obama- Billions for Immigration

Originally Posted by Skybird

United
Socialism of
America.

Thats what it is about, even if it sounds like cliché - it is no cliché, but socialist ideology. Delete historically grown identity and deny its existence, by that make rum to fill the void with socialist collectivism and the ideal new socialist man. The EU does exactly the same in Europe, by trying to delete regional differences more and more, habits and characteristics, and demanding that all regions shall run by the same rules, no matter whether said rules make sense in all regions. But the similarity between people on the Balkan and in the Baltic are not going much beyond phonetic similarities.

What is done in the US and the EU, compares to what Stalin did in the Soviet Union, and Tito in Yugoslavia: deleting ethnic and national characteristics of people, and replacing them with the monocultural homo sovieticus, or the Yugoslav uni-identity man.

See how they ended, learn from it. Conflict, hostility, war. Thats what happens when you force together what does not match, and deny people the right to live by their own identity feeling.

Admitted, that is more important for Europe than the Us, since the US is basing on a totally different historic path of origin, being founded not by ethnic and national identity, but migration in the first. Still, the US has since long started to copy EU ways of thinking, and has turned socialist to a degree one would not have imagined possible just some decades ago.

The destruction of the institution of "family" also plays a role here.

How far beyond the realms of sanity does one have to voyage to make a claim like that?
I do like that last bit though, so funny to read crap like that from someone who believes all that Rothbardian ideology nonsense where families don't matter and their children are just a commodity which should be sold at the market without a second thought.

So immigrants cannot live by their own identity feeling, but residents can? When does an immigrant become a resident? What is an identity feeling?

No , he clearly means that any muslims in Germany shall live under their own caliphatery and have whatever sharia law they like as you cannot deny their right to live however they choose to identify

Who'da thunk he would be so accommodating eh?

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

and Tito in Yugoslavia: deleting ethnic and national characteristics of people, and replacing them with the monocultural homo sovieticus, or the Yugoslav uni-identity man.

See how they ended, learn from it. Conflict, hostility, war. Thats what happens when you force together what does not match, and deny people the right to live by their own identity feeling.

The wars started AFTER some people went to reverse what Tito did.
And there were no wars when Tito was alive. Titos Yugoslav uni-identity man was a successefull war prevention project, unfortunately successefully reversed 10 years later by individuals with personal ambitions.

No-one went to war after 1991 because they were forced to live together.
They went to war because they were brainwashed AFTER Tito died.

How do I know ?? I live on the ashes of that country and I listen about the good times from Slovenes, Serbs, Bosnians, Croats and Macedonians, when no-one hated each other.

How do you know??

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Betonov

The wars started AFTER some people went to reverse what Tito did.
And there were no wars when Tito was alive. Titos Yugoslav uni-identity man was a successefull war prevention project, unfortunately successefully reversed 10 years later by individuals with personal ambitions.

No-one went to war after 1991 because they were forced to live together.
They went to war because they were brainwashed AFTER Tito died.

How do I know ?? I live on the ashes of that country and I listen about the good times from Slovenes, Serbs, Bosnians, Croats and Macedonians, when no-one hated each other.

How do you know??

You just prove my point. Tito failed. He did not delete the underlying identities, he tried, and he couldn't. After Tito was gone, they broke their way once again.

Or look at the Ukrainian conflict - the same. Stalin moved people by the millions. Millions died, huge resettlement projects throughout the Soviet Union. Suppression of Muslim republics in the south. Then, the USSR gone - and eruption of multiple conflicts.

Look at the artificial border-drawing by Western imperialists in the ME, the states formed that way, where beliefs and tribes got stuffed together that do not go well together. The whole region is a powderkeg. You remove the dictator that held the lid on the kettle by raw power - and the thing exploded imemdiately.

Look at the 70 years of sleeping of Islam in Turkey, where Attaturk tried to overcome traditional Islam and form a modern, Western society. Erdioghan took less than one decade to end that experiment and reverse it. Turkey is on its way back into the pre-Attaturk era. Conservative Islam was never gone - it was suppressed, so it pulled back and rested some decades, and now its back in full force.

You cannot change historically grown identities of regions and people by power and force and pressure.

The EU doing it now - it will terribly backfire one day. If you think the days of war are over in Europe, then you are wrong.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You just prove my point. Tito failed. He did not delete the underlying identities, he tried, and he couldn't. After Tito was gone, they broke their way once again.

Tito didn't fail. He just died at the end.
He was sucesseful because there was no ethnic tension while he was alive.

The party failed because they let people that didn't believe in a multi-national
state take power.

Actually, he was succesefull even in the long run. The current young generation is growing past that ethnic hatred. Cheap travels and the internet made connecting with the other republics as simple as a push of a button. Cultural borders that Tito tore down and the nineties built back are decaying on their own.
Only some sad angry individuals still linger in the shadows. Bitter because there was no winner in those wars. Causing trouble when they can but only reinforcing the unity between the open minded.

Yugoslavia is being reborn even if only in the minds of the young ones, not corrupted by the leftover brainwashing that destroyed their parents generation. And they take Tito as an example.

So, Tito did not fail. Only his ideals skipped a generation.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

United
Socialism of
America.

Thats what it is about, even if it sounds like cliché - it is no cliché, but socialist ideology. Delete historically grown identity and deny its existence, by that make rum to fill the void with socialist collectivism and the ideal new socialist man. The EU does exactly the same in Europe, by trying to delete regional differences more and more, habits and characteristics, and demanding that all regions shall run by the same rules, no matter whether said rules make sense in all regions. But the similarity between people on the Balkan and in the Baltic are not going much beyond phonetic similarities.

What is done in the US and the EU, compares to what Stalin did in the Soviet Union, and Tito in Yugoslavia: deleting ethnic and national characteristics of people, and replacing them with the monocultural homo sovieticus, or the Yugoslav uni-identity man.

See how they ended, learn from it. Conflict, hostility, war. Thats what happens when you force together what does not match, and deny people the right to live by their own identity feeling.

Admitted, that is more important for Europe than the Us, since the US is basing on a totally different historic path of origin, being founded not by ethnic and national identity, but migration in the first. Still, the US has since long started to copy EU ways of thinking, and has turned socialist to a degree one would not have imagined possible just some decades ago.

The destruction of the institution of "family" also plays a role here.

Wow, you've come a long way, my friend. There was a time years ago when I suspected you a Socialist. I agree, the US is not really the US as it was on its path to its current/fading glory.

Originally Posted by Oberon

So immigrants cannot live by their own identity feeling, but residents can? When does an immigrant become a resident? What is an identity feeling?

I'm not sure I understand your question, so my response may be totally wrong. Obviously, the culture and identity of a country is determined by its people. Since its founding, the US has been basically a Euro-derived people. As it stands, the US is quickly on its way to becoming a Hispanic nation. Is that bad? Is it good? Is it immaterial? Well, consider this: the people who are illegally entering the country are coming from countries where Hispanics are the majority, where they have their own government and culture, and they are leaving en masse. So, when the US becomes Mexico II, think it will be any better over the long term?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Wow, you've come a long way, my friend. There was a time years ago when I suspected you a Socialist. I agree, the US is not really the US as it was on its path to its current/fading glory.

I remember some opportunities you probably have on mind, and you are right - I have changed some views I once held up. Sometimes I take my time to do so. But when reality forces me to see that I got something wrong, then I do adapt for sure. I just hate to change my mind just to do somebody else a favour.

And believe it or not, a few answers of yours in long since gone discussion have had their impact on me for sure. It's just that they detonated with a delayed fuze. Your innocent naturalness by which you once asked me in a return argument why you should see it as your obligation to pay taxes for the demands of other people - that got me completely unprepared, and I never have forgotten it. Back then I somewhat snapped, or was disgusted (-> empört). Today - I cover you.

Yes, on some things I have done a very long intellectual journey. My attitude towards "state" and "social responsibility", and Islam being the two most obvious examples. It is not necessarily a bad thing, however: you have come to see things from both sides, and then know even better why in the end you refuse the one and accept the other.

A "socialist" by the meaning of the word however I have never been, not even in my teen years. My teen years' folly was that I admired Reagan back then. No joke. Anothert thing I have dramatically changed...

[STEED]

Inside Tory central campaign office...

Mr Cameron we can win the general election if we let in one million Mexican's

Cameron.."What can they offer?

Mexican chilli..

And on that note welcome to the UK and remember vote Tory.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I'm not sure I understand your question, so my response may be totally wrong. Obviously, the culture and identity of a country is determined by its people. Since its founding, the US has been basically a Euro-derived people. As it stands, the US is quickly on its way to becoming a Hispanic nation. Is that bad? Is it good? Is it immaterial? Well, consider this: the people who are illegally entering the country are coming from countries where Hispanics are the majority, where they have their own government and culture, and they are leaving en masse. So, when the US becomes Mexico II, think it will be any better over the long term?

No, I think you got the gist of it.
Nations change over time because of the influx of immigrants, once upon a time England was a pagan nation, as was most of Europe, then Christian immigrants and missionaries spread out from the Middle East. Sometimes these immigrants arrive through conquest, the UK has gone through at least a dozen of these conquests in its early history. Even as recent as the aftermath of the destruction of the Spanish Armada we received Spanish immigrants, survivors of the Armada who integrated themselves into the South-east coast of the country. They changed and the people around them changed, mostly un-noticably in the grand swathe of time, but when it happened it must have seemed like an invasion to the people of Cornwall and Devon.
The US is changing, just as all nations have changed, Skybirds Germany didn't even exist until two hundred years ago, and since then it has changed in demographics dramatically over two centuries.
In a way, America has been lucky, its borders have remained relatively static since the civil war, Europe has not. Borders are written and rewritten on the whims of leaders, we have seen just under seventy years of relative peace in Europe, the longest since the end of the Roman Empire, but even then our borders have changed, and people have moved from one nation to another. My great-grandmother came from what was called 'Polish Russia' but is now Lithuania, my wifes great-grandparents were from Poland, and yet I am English. My entire country is made up of immigrants, as is yours, and the ethnicity of these immigrants has changed from century to century.
Sure, you have Hispanics coming in by the truckload, and they will settle, and they will bring their own language and their behaviour, and this will benefit and cause problems for Euro-Americans. I mean, how many Euro-Americans eat at Taco-Bell these days? Look at Tex-Mex food, a blending of American and Mexican food. With a more xenophobic outlook on Mexican immigrants it's likely this would never have occurred.

Sure, it's scary, especially when you're on the other end, you feel as though you're losing control of your country, of your way of life, and people will happily use that fear to create hatred against others, even to the extent of genocide and murder. However, change is inevitable, whether you perceive it to be good or bad is immaterial. You can fight it, if you wish, many have done, Native Americans, Anglo-Saxons, Incas, and perhaps you will succeed, others have done...but your nation will still change, it will still become a nation that you will not recognise, just as the nation you grew up in would be unrecognisable to the Founding Fathers.

Everything changes, nothing stays static, that is the nature of the world.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Skybirds Germany didn't even exist until two hundred years ago,

Not really, that is too shallow an argument. The German identity started to set in already roughly one thousand years ago. Its a bit more tricky than just going back to 1848/49 (I assume you refer to the Frankfurt Parliament), or 1871 (founding of the German empire). Or 1648, the end of the 30-years war and Germany being a collection of German states.

You need to go back as far as to Heinrich I. (9th century) to find the era in which the German identity started to form up as a characterising trait uniting many groups. The initiliasing event was his successful campaign against the ongoing raids and attacks by predatory Hungarians.

Others will trace back the birthday of "German-ness" even further, back to the time of the Roman empire.

What it comes down to? Identity is more than just a passport or nationality.