The future of Submarine simulations

[biosthetique]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

The other problem is, sadly, that I don't see us getting much in the way of "new blood" into the hardcore sim community. The younger people who we need to flow into the community are, for the most part, not attracted to games that are slow moving, and especially not ones where they have to read a manual to learn to play. Do you know how many people my Dangerous Waters manual has scared off from even giving the game a try? I'd love to give society the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see the younger generation, that we need to bolster the community, having anywhere NEAR the attention span that's needed to play these games. I just don't see it.

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation goes for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

[desertstriker]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

are you saying you have to play DW to be a hard core simmer? i sure hope not because DW may not have the same alure to them and cannot get into it for their own reasons perhaps being a modern simulator and not a WW2 simulator for example.

[biosthetique]

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!

Not necessarily. People say that Falcon 4 is the best aircraft sim out there, but to the pilot a true simulator is a full cockpit mock-up on a gimbal that precisely represents flying the airplane.

It could therefore be argued that a true submarine simulator would be a real submarine interior the 'player' could walk around in. Anything played on a computer is going to be less than that. Some hardcore players would insist that a true sim allows you to turn every single dial and control every single lever, but those are things a captain never does. Everything is governed by what 'feels' real to the individual player. Once again I quote Rockin Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings".

[desertstriker]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It could therefore be argued that a true submarine simulator would be a real submarine interior the 'player' could walk around in.

you mean my dream man cave? lol

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by desertstriker

you mean my dream man cave? lol

Actually I think the only real possible WWII simulator would be the set from Das Boot, gimballed pivoting full interior with all the controls in place.

[desertstriker]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually I think the only real possible WWII simulator would be the set from Das Boot, gimballed pivoting full interior with all the controls in place.

true lol but considering that i would actually be living in it, it would need to be a little more high tech and have a little more tech in it

NOW to adress Bios' post. CAN EVERYBODY CALM DOWN?
only 1 person said you posted like a 12 year old and then HB came to your defense. now like was said some people can't just play on 100% realism for their own personal reasons/preferences. but to condem them for what you consider as arcadish (atleast thats what i am geting out of your post as well) that may be a little harsh.

i will admit i misunderstood your post at first but after rereading it several times i think i got the full meaning but i admit i might still be missing something.

[biosthetique]

Wow!...That is interesting how some people felt depth charged and got on the defensive!...They might have identified themselves with some details on the post and they did not like it.

So, they went on to blame the writer of the post as a 12 years old, etc.....

Nevertheless, I don't have the power to make anyone feel, they make themselves feel.

Hence, man-up and take responsibility for the way you feel about that post, don't blame me!....I am not 12 twelve and I already served my country!

Hooowhat?

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

Wow!...That is interesting how some people felt depth charged and got on the defensive!...They might have identified themselves with some details on the post and they did not like it.

So, they went on to blame the writer of the post as a 12 years old, etc.....

Nevertheless, I don't have the power to make anyone feel, they make themselves feel.

Hence, man-up and take responsibility for the way you feel about that post, don't blame me!....I am not 12 twelve and I already served my country!

Hooowhat?

Of course I identified with it. I'm not a hardcore simmer and, had you actually read what I wrote, you'd know that and why.

So, thanks for not actually contributing anything to this conversation.

[hellfish6]

Originally Posted by biosthetique

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation go for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

Sorry, but this is one of the dumbest posts I've read in a long time. It's hard to tell, as you write like a 12 year old (though, admittedly, with more proper grammar and spelling) but it seems to me that you're complaining about the people who don't dedicate their waking lives to games, which makes them less valid as consumers of entertainment in your eyes.

Who cares how a person plays a game? All good games allow players - be they super hard core because they prioritize that in their life; or others, who prioritize other things in life and can't invest the time to learn something at an operator-level of efficiency - play the game as they want to.

SH3 was a success because it catered to both. SH4 was almost there too. If everyone only ever made games for the die hard sim crowd, there would be no gamers today - just a extremely vocal minority of zealots who can never, collectively, be pleased.

Who are you to judge one way is the Right™ way to play a game, and the other way is the Wrong™ way? Congratulations - you have the time and energy to invest in something you paid $40 for and know intimately.

I have a job (which, by the way, has me deployed overseas doing the exact same thing most of you here are simming) and a family and a fairly active social life. I still like - nay, love - gaming. I just can't invest the time and effort into it that you do.

I don't care how many rivets a Type VIIC U-boat has. I don't care if it dives 0.25m per second slower than the real one does. I care that it looks like a sub, plays like a sub, and sinks things like a sub. And, yes, unless I cheat, it sinks like a damn sub too.

But obviously I'm the one wrong here and ruining it for everyone else that's a Real Hardcore Simmer™. Where's my Xbox?

[Hawk66]

I think it would be good if you guys calm down a little.

A good sim is accessible to both types of player: hardcore and casual.
Even the king of all sims, which is for me Falcon 4.0, had some in-built settings and game modes...directly aimed at the casual gamer. Or look at the Microprose simulations...

DW does do that job...the only issue is that it would be helpful if the manual would include also a tutorial chapter...running an example mission for the casual gamer...

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by hellfish6

It's hard to tell, as you write like a 12 year old (though, admittedly, with more proper grammar and spelling) but it seems to me

Please bear in mind we are an international community with a great deal of members who have English as a second, third, or more language. Even those who don't have it as their primary language do a much better job of it that native English speakers returning the favour. Also we are a family-friendly forum, it's possible that the writing like a 12 year old could actually be from a 12 year old, or younger.

Regards,

Herr-Berbunch

[Nexus7]

Btw, the DW manual, despite being a fat manual, doesnt explain anything "in depth", but rather what button does what. Being the interfaces quite self eplainatory, most part of the manual will not be much usefull to most players. It's a reference manual (together with the in-game manual).
But the game is delivered with training videos as well, and that is (IMO) more useful to quickly begin to actually do things. It still requires concentration and reasoning to make meaningfull (and successfull) actions. Then it's a matter of motivation. If one has it then he'll ask questions (for example in here); if not, he'll try another game.
People that want something to "just blow stuff up" simply bought the wrong game (even because they will be disappointed by the raw graphics in first instance) - he'd better buy one from the SH series .
If I'd try to play a fly simulator for fighters (the detailled ones) just to blow up things, I'd probably throw manual amd DVD in the cellar after 10 minutes as well. Then when everything is more or less understood, there is the need for triggers.
Virtual navies were excellent triggers to add variety to the games, putting in place players stats, rewarding medals, organizing clan-wars (!), promoting players and so on, adding a lot to the bare game itself. Maybe that will rise again