Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Skybird]

The NRA is about securing and boosting profits for the firearms-producing industry, it is no amendment-defending lobby at all but a business lobby putting profit above everything else.

This it is, and nothing else - everything else they claim to be is just alibi, deception, misleading of the public, blackmailing politicians, and hijacking the 2nd amendment.

I could be for rights of owning a firearm - and by European standards I am more in favour of that than is considered politically correct over here - and still would not wish to have anything to do with this highly dubious organisation.

Lobbyism should be understood as a capital crime, because in my book it is conspiration against the people. In case of the NRA, the conspirators are powerful enough to blackmail the representatives who got "legitimated" through public elections - whatever that is worth in today's prolocracy, but let'S ignore that for the moment. When lobbies draw the laws and design the policies, a democracy is no more a democracy where majority decisions by and on behalf of the people decide things. It is a hidden form of tyranny by a small, hidden elite bypassing the democratic rules completely, and abusing them. That'S why I consider lobbyism to be a capital crime. That is true for business lobbies. That is true for grassroot movement lobbies. Lobbyism always is aiming at bypassing the majority vote, or manipulating it. That's what makes it criminal.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The NRA is about securing and boosting profits for the firearms-producing industry, it is no amendment-defending lobby at all but a business lobby putting profit above everything else.

This it is, and nothing else - everything else they claim to be is just alibi, deception, misleading of the public, blackmailing politicians, and hijacking the 2nd amendment.

Absolutely correct.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The NRA is about securing and boosting profits for the firearms-producing industry, it is no amendment-defending lobby at all but a business lobby putting profit above everything else.

This it is, and nothing else - everything else they claim to be is just alibi, deception, misleading of the public, blackmailing politicians, and hijacking the 2nd amendment.

I could be for rights of owning a firearm - and by European standards I am more in favour of that than is considered politically correct over here - and still would not wish to have anything to do with this highly dubious organisation.

Lobbyism should be understood as a capital crime, because in my book it is conspiration against the people. In case of the NRA, the conspirators are powerful enough to blackmail the representatives who got "legitimated" through public elections - whatever that is worth in today's prolocracy, but let'S ignore that for the moment. When lobbies draw the laws and design the policies, a democracy is no more a democracy where majority decisions by and on behalf of the people decide things. It is a hidden form of tyranny by a small, hidden elite bypassing the democratic rules completely, and abusing them. That'S why I consider lobbyism to be a capital crime. That is true for business lobbies. That is true for grassroot movement lobbies. Lobbyism always is aiming at bypassing the majority vote, or manipulating it. That's what makes it criminal.

See you're a MSNBC lover..

I'm not a member, was years ago, but the NRA has evolved over the years as more gun control came about. They certainly turned into more of a lobbying force, but the question is why?

Lobbies are made of people defending their beliefs, that's why the supreme court says they're lawful. The problem becomes when one side gets radical, the other side gets as radical. In the end this is supposed to balance things out.

The problem isn't so much with lobbies, but people that won't stand up for what they believe, like many politicains that would sell out.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The problem isn't so much with lobbies, but people that won't stand up for what they believe, like many politicains that would sell out.

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies. Lobbies are simply groups of people combining together to push their beliefs. You start a lobby, I start one to counter you, it's the American way.

The NRA isn't really a big lobby itself, it's a force because millions of non-members believe in many of it's principles. The anti-gun people can't compete with this force. I'm sure they're many Dems in gun states that are really anti-gun, but rather than stand up for what they believe, they pretend to be pro-gun. Probably why Reid won't bring up a gun vote, scared if he forces these Dems to vote with the party, they'll lose their upcoming elections...If he does call a vote, he'll lose and he knows it, politicians would rather keep their seats.

The fact America is a gun nation has little to do with the NRA, but because most want to own guns for numerous reasons.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies. Lobbies are simply groups of people combining together to push their beliefs. You start a lobby, I start one to counter you, it's the American way.

That's like saying that the problem isn't the drug pushers, it's the drug users. And just because something is traditionally done does not mean that that tradition is the best, or even right way to go about it. History is littered with harmful traditions.

The NRA isn't really a big lobby itself, it's a force because millions of non-members believe in many of it's principles. The anti-gun people can't compete with this force. I'm sure they're many Dems in gun states that are really anti-gun, but rather than stand up for what they believe, they pretend to be pro-gun. Probably why Reid won't bring up a gun vote, scared if he forces these Dems to vote with the party, they'll lose their upcoming elections...If he does call a vote, he'll lose and he knows it, politicians would rather keep their seats.

The fact America is a gun nation has little to do with the NRA, but because most want to own guns for numerous reasons.

The NRA is an extremely powerful lobby. It's not like the oil lobby (no other lobby is anywhere near that powerful), but it is has a lot of influence.

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

That's like saying that the problem isn't the drug pushers, it's the drug users. And just because something is traditionally done does not mean that that tradition is the best, or even right way to go about it. History is littered with harmful traditions.



The NRA is an extremely powerful lobby. It's not like the oil lobby (no other lobby is anywhere near that powerful), but it is has a lot of influence.

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

Well, I would say it is the drug users. I choose not to do drugs and obey the law. If people are willing to commit crimes, someone will be there to meet their needs. Supply only exist because of demand.

The NRA only has 4 million members. That leaves over 100,000,000 gun owners not members. That is where the real power lies. However, the NRA is growing and will always be a force.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The NRA only has 4 million members.

Over 4 million now. They got quite a few new memberships since Feinstien and Obama starting running their mouths.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The NRA only has 4 million members. That leaves over 100,000,000 gun owners not members. That is where the real power lies. However, the NRA is growing and will always be a force.

The number I read was closer to 50 million gun owners (gun owners not guns). But in any case, the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in this country. That is something worth considering.

I have been an active gun owner for over 30 years and I have never been, nor want to be, a NRA member.

The NRA is a powerful lobby only because politicians think they are powerful. But that could be said about pretty much any lobby.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

I think the gun, in America, has taken on a symbolic meaning of freedom and independence that has been woven into our national fabric even before the founding of our country with the revolutionary war.

edit:
This is why I say even before the revolutionary war, I think this is the beginning of our national image and tapestry.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think the gun, in America, has taken on a symbolic meaning of freedom and independence that has been woven into our national fabric even before the founding of our country with the revolutionary war.

edit:
This is why I say even before the revolutionary war, I think this is the beginning of our national image and tapestry.

To you, it does. America is a large and diverse nation, and as such the meaning of American freedom and independence varies per person or group. On the Fourth of July I don't think of guns. You do. Both are fine, but I resent people trying to tell me what America means.

[Ducimus]

I don't necessarily agree with everything the NRA says or does, but they are the best organization to defend the second amendment.

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

All too true, and while i don't like how this is how things are in this manner, it isn't going to change anytime soon. It is also why I gave the NRA a two year membership and other monetary donations to begin with. The real power in our government is not in the voting booth. If you want the real power, just follow the money. Contributing money to the NRA is tantamount to going to a voting booth, only much more effective.

edit:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies.

Also true in my opinion. Politicans don't care about anything but keeping their jobs and maintaining power and prestige. They are little more then puppets, and more often then not, are not representative of their people. They get into office, then do what they want anyway if they think they can get away with it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Armistead

See you're a MSNBC lover..

No, I prefer jazz, swing and classic.

I'm not a member, was years ago, but the NRA has evolved over the years as more gun control came about. They certainly turned into more of a lobbying force, but the question is why?

Lobbies are made of people defending their beliefs, that's why the supreme court says they're lawful. The problem becomes when one side gets radical, the other side gets as radical. In the end this is supposed to balance things out.

The problem isn't so much with lobbies, but people that won't stand up for what they believe, like many politicians that would sell out.

Lobbies are what renders the electorate powerless and their votes pointless. And business lobbies are not about what they believe, but about what they are being payed for by their paying customers.

They corrupt the very idea of majority decisions in a democratic context - that your court has ruled them to be legal just shows that it already is corrupted and abused itself and that your system is hijacked and has tuned the rules to serve the interests of those who have hijacked and now abuse the system.

Appearances are deceptive. Look beyond.