Lengths of the Merchant ships

[CapnScurvy]

When figuring the time a specific measured object takes to pass a specific point, the accuracy in the speed calculation comes from expecting the measured length is actually the true length of the object. The game does not provide an accurate true length of objects in it's optical views.

Using a formula that expects a yard to be equal to 3 feet, or 36 inches, is fine when our world is perceived to be as expected. However, using the same real life formula in a game world that doesn't recognize a yard to equal 3 feet will produce inaccurate results......for either finding distance, or measuring amount of time a specific measured object passes by. If the measurement is off, so are the results. The same is true if the time piece used doesn't truly measure time as a single minute equals 60 seconds. You'll not get an accurate speed calculation if the time piece errors in it's keeping accurate time.

Your making an assumption that the game provides real life optical sizes......it does not. Nor, does it provide accurate length or height measurements that could be used with an accurate visually rendered world. It doesn't do that either. There's folks that have changed measurements just for the sake of changing measurements, in order to throw off an accurate measurement (they think its more "realistic" that way)!?! As an example, TMO has the Hiryu mast height set at 20 meters tall (it's the same mast height measurement that came with the stock SH4 1.0 version game). You'll always get a stadimeter found range to be off by half what it should be using 20 meters for it's mast height with TMO. I don't think Ducimus did this intentionally (like some others) but it is what it is.

Those ship lengths found in the game files were never implemented in the game for a reason.......the devs knew their optical system was flawed but they didn't have time to fix the problem before UbiSoft came-a-knocking to release what they had. So they put the Telemeter Divisions (lens hashmarks) onto the scopes for eye candy, and kept the ship lengths out of the Recognition Manual. They fixed some of the ship mast height measurements with their patches and went on to do UbiSoft's bidding for another try at a U-Boat game, leaving the Fleet Boat simulation to fend for itself.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Your making an assumption that the game provides real life optical sizes......it does not.

No, I *KNOW* it does not, hence the reason I correct for it when measuring distance as stated above.


However, and I can't stress this enough:

The FOV issue has no relevence when considering the speed formula. NONE.

The reason for this is that the apparent distance to the target does not enter into the equation at all in any way shape or form. This is why the formula works without modification regardless of the range. Examine the formula in more detail if you don't believe me, the math bears this fact out 100% without doubt. To be sure that the point is clear, I'll restate it another way: The speed formula does not require *apparent length* (which is what the fov issue fouls up) but requires *true length* instead.


I haven't personally confirmed that the lengths are inaccurate to some degree as well, but I do believe you 100%, having used the stadimeter before. Personally, I'm not sure I buy that the sub commanders had 100% accurate lengths for warships at least since these would have been the result of espionage. Since most of those merchant designs predate the war, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually did have pretty reliable dimension data for them though. They where pulling into ports all over the pacific where we could just discretely measure them at will.


Regardless, innacurate lengths will undoubtably give innacurate results no matter what you're measuring, the only thing that can be done about that would be to hand measure a list of accurate lengths I believe, which I think you've done in your mod.



Truly though, if you want to argue against the speed formula the real point of attack is that these boats couldn't maintain a fixed position very well. They could hold a depth without power if everything was set up perfectly, but since the weight of the vessel changes throughout the day (fuel and ammo being major concerns with garbage and waste being lesser issues, all of which lighten the boat, while crew moving about the ship change its balance), this cannot be relied on. Still, this doesn't change the facts that if the known ship length is accurate, and the boat can maintain a fixed position, then speed can be determined without knowing the fov of the optics you're using to get said measurement.

Personally, I'm more interested in distance measurements though, hence the reason I've done the math to get a working formula.

[CapnScurvy]

Your quite right, the size of the object doesn't matter as long as the "scale representation" of it is consistent. A ship passing a specific line will take the same amount of time to pass, whether the view is enlarged or not. Timing of the passing is constant, no matter what the view.

[BuddyFromMoon]

Scurvy, will you stop?! I don't really care, if the measuring or whatever is accurate! I only care if i hit the ship or not, let's not make this so difficult! PLEASE!

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by BuddyFromMoon

.. I don't really care, if the measuring or whatever is accurate! I only care if i hit the ship or not, let's not make this so difficult! PLEASE!

I think what the Capn is trying to tell us, is that you can't expect to hit the target very well, if the measuring is not accurate.

To be sure that the point is clear, I'll restate it another way: The speed formula does not require *apparent length* (which is what the fov issue fouls up) but requires *true length* instead.

Unless I'm not understanding CapnScurvy's postings, he is saying that:

the historical length
the game image length
the recognition manual length

are all different (at least in some cases). This makes common sense assumptions about math and manual targeting hazardous.