More Holocaust survivors to receive German compensation

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by kranz

sorry, but if Siemens, IBM and Hollerith couldn't give any precise number, I can't either. But the number can't be bigger than the actual number of them on the occupied territories.

When I argue that a numerical figure is incorrect, it is usually because I have a figure that I think is correct. Otherwise it's all just hot air.

Protesting Christians?

What proportion of the clergy in your own country was rounded up by the nazis and sent to concentration camps?
Of course that proportion wouldn't include all those that were rounded up and executed en masse in 1939 under the sonderfahndungsbuch lists.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

When I argue that a numerical figure is incorrect, it is usually because I have a figure that I think is correct. Otherwise it's all just hot air.

If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.
Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.

Back to giving advice.
I'm much obliged to you for showing me where to improve.
Now my advice for you: before you tell people what to do, make sure you you have done your homework by grasping at least the essentials of the discussed matter so that you know what you are talking about.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by kranz

If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.

You made no such argument in that post. You gave a snippy answer and posted a bunch of emoticons. You know, your usual modus operandi.

Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.

That almost resembles an answer, albeit in a Skybirdian round-about way. You still didn't say what you thought it was, but it looks like it is a close as we are going to get.

Back to giving advice.
I'm much obliged to you for showing me where to improve.
Now my advice for you: before you tell people what to do, make sure you you have done your homework by grasping at least the essentials of the discussed matter so that you know what you are talking about.

See above. Essentials indeed.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by kranz

If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.
Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.

When you talk about the 3 million figure it's also important to say the source and the time of this claim. Much new information was gained after historians finally had access to the Soviet archives, not before the early 90s. This is why the number went down. Many other non-Holocaust related numbers were also corrected.
This must be funny for people who spew the bull about how Jews control the historic research (or any and all media), that those numbers were relatively quickly accepted by historians. However this is what science is about: new sources, new insights.

The US Holocaust museum writes those numbers

At least 960,000 Jews were killed in Auschwitz. Other victims included approximately 74,000 Poles, 21,000 Roma (Gypsies), and 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war; and 10,000-15,000 members of other nationalities (Soviet civilians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, French, Germans, and Austrians).

(source:http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005189)

Regarding the "Straight to the gas": The article above also says that about approximately 320000 of 420000 Hungarian Jews were send directly into the chambers. Why is this an idiotic claim?
The people were registered when the trains took off. The Reichsbahn even got money from the SS for the tranportation (http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/trains.html).
The Selektion happpened at the ramp, when the trains arrived, a well-documented fact. For the people who died during the transport and for those who were of no use (=instant death sentence) there was no bureaucratic necessity to register them on the prisoner list. Why should they, they needed no resources like space in the barracks, food, clothing, etc. So in the cold world of bureaucracy they never arrived in the camps as prisoners.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You made no such argument in that post. You gave a snippy answer and posted a bunch of emoticons. You know, your usual modus operandi.

the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it. Especially when you act according to your modus operandi: read one post, post irrelevant response, being redirected to another post, post another irrelevant response. Read the whole or better don't because it seems like you have come here just to sniff out some imagined problems in my posts. Didn't get my point? I don't care...

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

That almost resembles an answer, albeit in a Skybirdian round-about way.

I will take that for a compliment.

Originally Posted by Penguin

Regarding the "Straight to the gas": The article above also says that about approximately 320000 of 420000 Hungarian Jews were send directly into the chambers. Why is this an idiotic claim?
The people were registered when the trains took off. For the people who died during the transport and for those who were of no use (=instant death sentence) there was no bureaucratic necessity to register them on the prisoner list. Why should they, they needed no resources like space in the barracks, food, clothing, etc. So in the cold world of bureaucracy they never arrived in the camps as prisoners.

agreed. That's what I meant. But I've seen posts (including axisforums) in which people argued that the 'final' number of victims should be higher because of that 'straight to gas' transports. That's is what I called idiocy, not the fact that they existed as such.

Back to archives. In 20 years or even less we gonna hear about 4 million and no one will be surprised.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by kranz

the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it. Especially when you act according to your modus operandi: read one post, post irrelevant response, being redirected to another post, post another irrelevant response. Read the whole or better don't because it seems like you have come here just to sniff out some imagined problems in my posts. Didn't get my point? I don't care...

Originally Posted by kranz

yep.
exactly the same computers which altered the number to 6 million
(in the late 1990's in schools we were still fed with the 7 million, not to mention the early post-war calculations which were as funny as the 6 million is today)

As I hope you can read for yourself, you said nothing of the sort in your post. Your statement rang of an arrogant belief that you and you alone knew what the numbers were, hence the line of questioning from Jim, Dowly and myself. If you had stated clearly in the first place, you wouldn't have three different people chasing you around to try and get you to clarify your remarks, no? Getting all butthurt over it won't change anything. Being needlessly rude to Cybermat47 didn't help either. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. Try to do it in a respectful manner too. We could have avoided all of this.

Here endeth the lesson.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by kranz

the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it.

One does not have to believe in that propaganda.

Back to archives. In 20 years or even less we gonna hear about 4 million[...]

Not unless someone can discredit the data the current estimates are based on and come up with a more creditable estimate.

[MH]

So it is 4m....how cool.

[Gerald]

How cool...people counted in the millions, they had a face and a soul.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Not unless someone can discredit the data the current estimates are based on and come up with a more creditable estimate.

they ain't that stupid.
article 55 of the 18.12.1998 act:
-who questions genocide in public and against facts (...)
is liable to a fine or up to 3 years in prison (I know that the translation sucks but I don't have enough time to find the proper law terminology, but i hope u get the idea).

Originally Posted by MH

So it is 4m....how cool.

Would you be more satisfied if the figure was bigger than 6 million?