German court bans circumcision

[MH]

Yeah... free the willy!!!

Yeah... free the willy!!!

Terms and conditions apply

[joegrundman]

Angela Merkel intervenes over court ban on circumcision of young boys
Spokesman says right to circumcision must be restored as a matter of urgency, after Cologne court's ruling against practice

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...n-circumcision

"For everyone in the government it is absolutely clear that we want to have Jewish and Muslim religious life in Germany," said Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert. "Circumcision carried out in a responsible manner must be possible in this country without punishment."

It seems the story is developing as i expected. Those who love Germany should be feeling relieved.

But to add a lighter touch to the debate, I came across this fantastic web comic by an intactivist: Foreskinman!



http://www.foreskinman.com/

[Skybird]

Politicians are spineless opportunists. She has so much crisis boiling hot around her that she wants to shut down this new construction site as soon as possible, but as a matter of fact a majority of Germans is against the issue and welcome the court ruling.

Before Merkel gets her ruthless will, she needs a majority in Bundestag and Bundesrat to pass an according law, which will be challenged before the constitutional high court, because it would mean the state is making a law on behalf of a religious lobby group - and like in America, formally the German state is not allowed to do that. The doctors interest organisation has spoken out against a religious permission to snip children, and has warned its members to carry out such surgery. The polls the media did in past days, also indicate that up to 80% of Germans, roughly, are against formal permission to mistreat children. We do not want child abuse over tribal cult reasons - that simple.

In Germany we have also laws that prohobit that teens get a tatoo even if there is written perimssion of the parents agreeing to it.

Let them grow up, and when they are above 18 years, let them decide wehtehr they want to get a tatoo, a piercing, a branding, a pslit tongue, or a genital "altertation". Just thjat the state agaiunst conspirates with relgions like in the times of absolutism kings conspirated with clergy to supüress the people as best as possible - this should not be tolerated.

Many newspüappers also have printed confessio0ns of - mostly Jewish - men who expresswed theirt disgust for this barbaric rite, and that they are thankful for their oarents and afthers that they have dared to resist to the pressure to get them circumcised back in their chiuldhood. Add to this the growing secularims movement in Israel itself, and that already six years ago research showed that up to one third of families got circimsuscion done only over fears of social boycotting and being brandmarked at jobs and school as heretics. It takes a very long shot to argue that "all Jews" agree on this practice. That simply is not the case, a prominent number opposes it, and this group is growing.

Needless to say that the zealots and the establishement cry hell and heaven over that and do their usual tamtam again. As if they would be of any meaningful importance. As always, the only thing coming from them, is conflict and mess. As always with relgions.

And "religions" claiming the right to abuse babies and children (mind you: the vast ,majority of circumsions for relgious reasons get doen withiut injection) and calling that "a cultural habit" deserve to be spit in the face anway.

Let them grow up, and when they are adult, let them choose. That is a basic human right. We call it a part of freedom. And it is a thoiuisand times mor eimprotanmt than relgiou claims for being excepted from the rules andsbeing given special status. Since 3000 years thy do it? Well, time to gte beyond that primitive mindset people had 3000 years ago, I would say. At least one has to get beyond it when it is about wheter or not doing harm to a vulnerable, eak indiovidual who is not capable to decide himself. We could as well tatoo a number code into imbiciles and old people living in asylums. Oh wait. We ha dsomething like that already, some decades ago. That wasnot done on behalf of relgion, which would have made mit okay,k but on behald of poltical ideology, which was not okay then. What a wonderful world whgere the same thing can be judged by so many different standards, basing on the final verdict you want to have. Barbary argued for in name of religion: okay. Barbary on behalf of poltiics, race supremacism: not okay.

Why?

Interesting that Merkel mentioned Jewish circumcision only, but no Muslim , though. The court case in Cologne was about a Muslim boy who almost died from the mutilation procedure.

[QUOTE]It seems the story is developing as i expected. Those who love Germany should be feeling relieved.
[/QUOTE]

I like this line from the other article on that link

The philosopher Emil Fackenheim, himself a survivor of Sachsenhausen concentration camp, famously added to the 613th commandments of the Hebrew scriptures with a new 614th commandment: thou must not grant Hitler posthumous victories.

[MH]

Here is nice article that is 1:1 my thoughts on the issue as whole and some more...

The sacred brit and other myths
The debate over circumcision and ritual slaughter in the U.K. forces us to take an honest look at our customs.

By Anshel Pfeffer | Jul.13, 2012 | 2:09 AM | 19

By Reuters | Jul.13,2012 | 2:09 AM | 6
Here are three cliches about circumcision. First, that it is a sacred covenant between God and the Jewish people. The fact is that whether or not you believe in the biblical narrative of Abraham and his sons, this is hardly a unique Jewish custom. Every day around the world, thousands of babies, young boys and fully grown men have their foreskins removed in a wide variety of rituals and medical procedures. Only a small minority of them are Jews and even among Jews, most are not doing it out of religious conviction, but for reasons of social necessity, family and peer pressures and because it's a good excuse for having a big party.
Second, being circumcised is good for your health. While there is research that points to certain health benefits, there are opposing studies which purport to prove that tampering with male genitalia causes trauma, impaired sexual function and carries well-documented risks. This conflicting medical evidence is hardly surprising - doctors are also partisans, who are every bit as biased as newspaper columnists when it comes to marshaling the facts.
The third cliche is that circumcision is a hallowed religious custom and in a democracy, people should be allowed to observe their traditions without politicians or courts intervening. This is normally an argument for which I have a great deal of sympathy. I don't want the government telling me how to live my life. Except for the fact that it's not my life. None of my four sons were asked in advance when, at the age of eight days, intense, intimate pain was inflicted upon them, and their private parts irrevocably changed. Hardly a democratic act.
And now for good measure, three cliches about ritual slaughtering.
One: Millions of animals are butchered daily for human consumption, so the focus by animal rights groups on Jewish shechita or Muslim halal ritual slaughter is hypocritical. Well, perhaps in another hundred years humans will no longer be eating animal flesh. But while carnivorism is still socially acceptable, there is no reason not to make every effort to minimize the animals' suffering in the process. Organic free-range husbandry also produces healthier food for humans.
Two: Shechita is a humane method ensuring a minimum of pain to the animal. This one always make me laugh as it goes against the most fundamental tenets of halakha, Jewish religious law. The only reason for the laws of Orthodox Jewish ritual slaughter is the belief that they are divinely ordained. Therefore, these rules are never to be changed, even if it is clear that more modern "animal-friendly" methods exist.
Three: Animal-welfare campaigns against shechita are actually thinly-veiled anti-Semitic attacks against Jewish customs. After all, wasn't a prohibition on ritual slaughter one of the very first restrictions the Third Reich imposed on German Jews? True, Jew-haters have traditionally used shechita in their propaganda to prove the Jews' bloodthirstiness, and indeed you can find it on neo-Nazi websites to this day. But equating all opposition to shechita with judeophobia is about as accurate as saying that every vegetarian is a Nazi, just because Hitler had a fetishist revulsion to eating meat.
And here's another cliche that applies to both issues: Jewish and Muslim communities share the same concerns regarding legislation against circumcision and ritual slaughter and this can be the foundation for interfaith cooperation. I would love to see closer, more harmonious relations between Jews and Muslims around the world, but I get frightened whenever I see fundamentalist rabbis and imams making common cause. The next step is joint lobbying for censorship laws against the "defamation" of religious icons by the media and popular culture, and muzzling democratic discourse by labeling it as "hate crime."
Cliches all have at least some element of truth to them but their overuse renders them obsolete. We are living in an age of increasing scrutiny of both well-established religions and newer cults. Serial sexual abuse scandals and cover-ups engendered unprecedented degrees of suspicion toward the Catholic church, while celebrity atheists such as Professor Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens hoisted antitheism to new heights of respectability.
Muslims in the West are subject nowadays to increasing levels of interference, while the presidential candidacy of Mitt Romney and the Tom Cruise-Katie Holmes divorce have redirected hostile spotlights on Mormonism and Scientology. Much of this attention is justified and has highlighted scandalous affairs in new and old beliefs alike. At the same time, there has been a lot of unwarranted hysteria and erroneous reporting. This is the nature of mass media and Jews cannot think they will evade similar attention for long.
While some journalists and other critics may be more restrained when dealing with a people that has undergone centuries of murderous persecution in the past, others if bothered at all by history, will make the valid argument that Jews are no longer an endangered community and deserve no special treatment. Indeed, many of those critics may well be Jews themselves.
Defenders of circumcision frequently remind us that this is the one custom that the overwhelming majority of Jews, religious and secular, adhere to. You could also argue that the majority of Jews who do not observe kashrut still want kosher meat to be easily available for their relatives and friends who do. These are valuable rallying points and they should spur liberal and secular Jews who want to continue celebrating their tradition - even if they don't keep mitzvot or believe in God in the Orthodox fashion - to take an interest in these issues and not leave them to the rabbis. We have to be clear that these are religious rituals which are often hard to defend, and to do so, we have to take all these concerns into consideration, not simply as lip service.
I will not live in a country that forbids Jews to perform their ancient customs. But I want circumcision and ritual slaughtering to be carried out utilizing all the benefits of modern medicine and technology and I want the government to have the power and political willpower to act against those who use unhygienic and dangerous methods. I want mohels to be licensed and trained by doctors and ritual slaughterers to be licensed and trained by veterinarians.
And I want them and the rabbis who endorse them to fully recognize medical concerns and the importance of animal welfare. To effectively defend the Jewish practices of circumcision and ritual slaughter, we have to ditch our cliches and make sure the practitioners clean up their act. Only if this is done seriously, will the majority of Jews feel they can continue supporting these practices in the future.
Above all, I don't want the battle for religious freedom to be hijacked by those who have scant respect for the values of democracy

[Penguin]

First: this is typical for Germany. Since 4 weeks doctors refuse to do circumcision due to legal uncertainty. So there has to be a discussion and a circumcision law - nonetheless in which form - has to be passed. And now already the first statement: Wow! Now you all know why nothing ever moves in Germany....

Second: Tattooing minors is not illegal in Germany. It is technically battery - just like the court decided circumcision is. So every tattoo artist only does people who give consent, otherwise they would do something illegal. Most artists would never tattoo someone under 16 though for various reasons. Some require a letter of consent from the parents by minors, however most do it only when a parent accompanies the client.

My prognosis is that circumcision will become the same matter like a tattoo - a battery that is legal when the affected party gives consent and if they are under 18 also the parents consent will be required.

So my question to the pro-circumcision guys: At what age would you think a tattoo is OK for a kid?

Originally Posted by MH's article

The third cliche is that circumcision is a hallowed religious custom and in a democracy, people should be allowed to observe their traditions without politicians or courts intervening. This is normally an argument for which I have a great deal of sympathy. I don't want the government telling me how to live my life. Except for the fact that it's not my life. None of my four sons were asked in advance when, at the age of eight days, intense, intimate pain was inflicted upon them, and their private parts irrevocably changed. Hardly a democratic act.

aeehm, you know this has been the point made by "our" side all the time?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Penguin

aeehm, you know this has been the point made by "our" side all the time?

Sure.
Still doing it on 8th day is the best solution if done in proper way...most people don't mind it in general when its done to them as infants but have "ouch" feeling about the issue at later age.


I got to know some who people who circumcised at older age and it wasn't very encouraging.
On ethical level the argument stands on practical not so much.
Also the practical side is compatible with jewish religious practice.

Line should be drawn what is parents responsibility and what is not....but actually thinking about it there are countless thing that government can legislate for the "greater good".



...............

[Penguin]

Well let's see how it will play out in the German parliament, in about 973 days when those lazy asses will meet the next time.

On a lighter note:

it is very likely that our politicians will give in to the lobbying of one of the most powerful, sinister and ruthless groups in the world.
They have people in any government, put pressure on anyone who disagreess and have the financial means to do the fight.
They have been around since a long time and certainly try to influence the discussion with their pro-circumcision-agenda....
























The Zipper industry

[Skybird]

Today: German association of children'S doctors also join the rows of those criticising that physical violence against children should be legalised due to relgious demands, warning of trivializing the basic Law which not only mentions the freedom of relgious practice (article 3), but also rules that every person (that includes children of religious stoneagers) shall have the right to free developement of his personality (that alone should be enough to rule out religious indoctrination of small children) as long as this does not violate the freedom of others, the constitutional order or the moral law, and that every person has the right to physical integrity.

German: http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...ellisiert.html

And Israel, there they have a crisis now due to the state wanting to delete religious priviliges for ultraorthdox so far enjoying to be freed from serving in the armed forces or from doing a replacement service. The secularism movement there seems to grow slowly but constantly, too, maybe in coincidence with government's interest to bring up enough conscripts, but still - or is it simply human reason?

But lets not forget, the circumcision issue in Germany is not about Jews only, but about Muslims as well.

I fear politicians will mess this up again, like they almost always tend to do. So in the very logn run Joey may be right with his expectations. But it probably will take much longer time. And who knows, maybe there will be a surprise in the end. The minister of justice, a liberal FDP woman, again put a foot on the brake today.

I think it is not by chance that the desert dogmas picked the most sensible part of the body for their sick rituals. The genitals are linked to human'S most intense feeling and feeling fo shame and moral vulnerability as well, and implementing huge pain on these necessarily cause an according traumatising expoerience that in cases of babies maybe get deeply buried in their subconmsciousness, but nevertheless still is there, while Musli8m boys the age of 8 not only feel the pjysical pain and the misery od the days after that, but often associate the procedure with intense fear, and - maybe even more important - shame of being manipulated in such a cruel way at their genitals and afterwards walkling for many days like a drunken donkey. Then there is the issue of the betrayed trust of the child in his parents, whcih is true for babies as well as 8 year old. The exprerience of being def3encelessly handed over to the act by the parents. A deep feeling of betrayal. I think relgions picked this to anchor deep the experience of shame and helplessness in the human soul, by that making the individual feeling exposed and weak and thus depending even m ore on the religion'S claim of being the answer. Hm. My English finds its limits here to express this in adequate clearness what I mean. Sorry. Maybe you get an idea, I do not know how to put it better in English.

I saw three times young boy who just had the procedure behi8n them, all three times in Turkey. Let me just say this: they were noeithe rhappy, nor proud, but they gave the impression of feeling hurt, and they were scared. They amslo tried to hide, since they could not walk "like a man/boy", but looked very funny in the way they stumbled around. A very sad sight., the sight of abused innocence. The parents acted as if they did not realise it, and big party was going on.

I always have had the impresison that the whole horror show is not about the children at all - just about the damn adults.

This issue should be settled on article 2 of the German constitution. And the uncompormised decdflration of that every religion is equal before the law like everybody else is, and that noi relgion shall be granted special rights for the mere reason of it being "religion". Laws shall never be bend or distorted on behalf of religions, no matter which one. And the German laws on physical violence against children and parents absuing or mistrteating their children, are clear. They must be enforced against "religious parents" as well - like they get enforced against secular or antireligious parents as well.

[Red October1984]

I first read the title of this thread. I next thought. "The hell i just read?" Then i thought, "Who wants to sit down and talk about circumcision with a bunch of other guys......."


Im sorry if this is ruining this thread, but i just have to ask one thing.


WHY?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

WHY?

its a conspiracy to turn Jews and Muslims into wankers.

or is it simply human reason?

Human reason...integration also equality in right and responsibilities.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

Human reason...integration also equality in right and responsibilities.

Very well then - and certainly better than if it were only parties' powerpolitical bluffs as usual.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I first read the title of this thread. I next thought. "The hell i just read?" Then i thought, "Who wants to sit down and talk about circumcision with a bunch of other guys......."


Im sorry if this is ruining this thread, but i just have to ask one thing.


WHY?

Sorry, but it takes much more to ruin a thread in GT.

Let' say I'm getting easily passionate when it is about freedom versus religion, and equality of all before the law versus religious claim to get specially exempted from valid laws but to enjoy undeserved priviliges instead.

[Red October1984]

If it is a matter of religion, I shall not stand in anybody's way. I shouldve read more closely.


I will never restrict anybody's religious beliefs if i ever became a government employee. Unlike this BS that Obama is tossing around here in America. HE IS SCREWING EVERYTHING UP!! I have yet to meet somebody who thinks he is a good president.