The Way I See It

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I have no experience with programming other than a crash course on Flash Programming i had a couple years ago and never stuck with. Too complicated for me. All the people who dont have any experience with programming are the ones who complain. Flash Programming was hard for me. 3D game programming is probably evil torture.

I'd say the people who don't have any experience programming are the ones saying how easy it is and how the modders can not only fix all that which the professional devs were too incompetent to get right and even create new AAA-level U-boat hardcore sim from scratch.

Anyway, my point is a lot of the people who post on forums vastly underestimate just how much work goes into a modern sim. All of the current products have evolved over the course of more than a decade. In the case of MSFS that is 30 years of evolution. It is unrealistic to assume people working in their spare time can develop a product with the same production quality, scope and fidelity over 2-3 years, which is the window you have before your assets and tech become obsolete. I just can't see why this should be such a controversial opinion on this board.

So yes I agree with Ducimus that we aren't going to see anymore subsims (at least not indie ones) unless people lower expectations of complexity and fidelity to the point where they might accept SFP1-type game with submarines that can be done by a smaller team working fulltime.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I'd say the people who don't have any experience programming are the ones saying how easy it is and how the modders can not only fix all that which the professional devs were too incompetent to get right and even create new AAA-level U-boat hardcore sim from scratch.

In college I was a CIS major because i didn't have the mathmatics to be a CS major. At the time, designing/making games was my dream. I believe that is the standard lament of an IT puke this day and age. I took several programming courses. Visual basic to start, then Java, and then to C++ doing win32 console apps, SDI with Doc/View, and other business related things like ODBC. Hell, i took the advanced programming course twice, just for fun. And then I fell into my current job because i couldn't find an entry level programming job, and all those skills (assuming I ever really had them), went away from disuse. I remember logic, but not so much the syntax. These days after 12 years in my current field, I would not put ANY OF THAT on my resume. It's a dead issue.

Anyway, my point is, when I took on making a supermod for SH4, I gained a newfound appreciation for just how much work goes into these games. On top of doing my normal job that paid money, i was doing my "modding job" that didn't pay any money. The two combined, i was sitting in a computer chair for anywhere between 16 to 18 hours a day. That is painful, and there just wasn't enough time in the day to do everything i wanted to do. Through all that, the thing is, your never REALLY editing the game. All your editing is configuration and resource files, and often enough trying to illicit a behavior the game was never coded for through said resource files.

As an aside, I will never bust my ass like i was doing, ever again. It just takes too much out of your personal life.

[HW3]

I took COBAL 68, RPG II, and Basic in college but, never could get hired into a entry level job, so all knowledge went away over time. I do remember how hard it was writing the programs, and debugging them, till they did what you wanted them to do. Believe me, it takes alot of patience to set for hours going over pages and pages of code to find one little error. That is why I never complain about how long a mod is taking to develop.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by HW3

I took COBAL 68, RPG II, and Basic in college but, never could get hired into a entry level job, so all knowledge went away over time. I do remember how hard it was writing the programs, and debugging them, till they did what you wanted them to do. Believe me, it takes alot of patience to set for hours going over pages and pages of code to find one little error. That is why I never complain about how long a mod is taking to develop.

GW BASIC and QBASIC, here. Debugging programs was a massive hassle back in the old days before all of the nice, spiffy compilers and debuggers we have nowadays, not to mention how mundane OLE is compared to back then when it was all new and spiffy. I wanted to program computers when I joined the army, but the "needs of the service" had me fix radio scramblers, instead. All my programming savvy rotted over time. I can stumble through XML with mixed results and ActionScript is an alien mess to me.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

I wanted to program computers when I joined the army, but the "needs of the service" had me fix radio scramblers, instead.

Where did you join the army? Which country do you live in? Just wondering, I have great respect for anyone who wears a uniform so their fellow citizens can sleep safely at night.


Again, i have little to no programming experience. I dont see myself ever doing that. I see myself flying an A-10C over some battlefield in the near future, not programming the weapon systems.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Where did you join the army? Which country do you live in? Just wondering, I have great respect for anyone who wears a uniform so their fellow citizens can sleep safely at night.

I am American. I started my army days at Ft. Leonard Wood.

Again, i have little to no programming experience. I dont see myself ever doing that. I see myself flying an A-10C over some battlefield in the near future, not programming the weapon systems.

The Warthog is absolutely golden when it comes to close air support. "Go Ugly" has a very special meaning.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

I am American. I started my army days at Ft. Leonard Wood.

The Warthog is absolutely golden when it comes to close air support. "Go Ugly" has a very special meaning.

DUDE!! Awesome!! I live within 100 (Im pretty sure) miles of Ft. Leonard Wood out near Cape Girardeau!! Had a friend go out there!

The Warthog is my all-time favorite. I really hope i get a chance to fly "Ugly"

Most of my family is Army, but im going to break tradition and go USAF. Ive always dreamt of flying.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

GW BASIC and QBASIC, here. Debugging programs was a massive hassle back in the old days before all of the nice, spiffy compilers and debuggers we have nowadays, not to mention how mundane OLE is compared to back then when it was all new and spiffy. I wanted to program computers when I joined the army, but the "needs of the service" had me fix radio scramblers, instead. All my programming savvy rotted over time. I can stumble through XML with mixed results and ActionScript is an alien mess to me.

I took QBASIC and TurboPascal classes in highschool but I never had the talent for it. Then when I was in the navy I was a combat systems operator and stared at radar search plots all day and spent my spare time learning 3d modelling instead. To this day the only programming I've ever been good at is ISO G-code for CNC multiaxis machines

[Der_Meister]

Hell, I'd be happy if someone simply updated the DOS version of Aces of the Deep; sharpen the graphics/resolution up a bit, add new textures to the pre-existing screens, include new/updated sound files for voices, engines, etc. and you're set. Gameplay-wise, there is very little (personally) that I would change. Hmmm does anyone know how moddable a DOS game is....

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Anyway, my point is, when I took on making a supermod for SH4,

Corrected for posterity.


I do some 'messing about' in C, C++, Visual Basic, and other scripting for different programs.
But I would not enjoy a large scale project myself.

I'm enjoying messing with many different things for SH3/4/5 right now and that's plenty.

Now show me the money? And it's a different story, maybe.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by privateer

Corrected for posterity.

Oops. Yup, I stand corrected. As modding goes, I wouldn't touch SH5 with a cattleprod on the end of a 12 foot pole.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Oops. Yup, I stand corrected. As modding goes, I wouldn't touch SH5 with a cattleprod on the end of a 12 foot pole.

I guess I have a 13 foot pole for now.



But I'm only helping figure out how to do model imports.
Not modding the Game actually.

[Satch]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Oops. Yup, I stand corrected. As modding goes, I wouldn't touch SH5 with a cattleprod on the end of a 12 foot pole.

WPW, Coming from you it must be a really bad piece of work.