TMO 2.5 Difficulty

[TorpexXIII]

Id like to try out the easier escort MOD for 2.5. Where can I find it? I did have a look!?

[Hylander_1314]

I was looking for it the other night myself, to post here, but couldn't find it either.

[TorpX]

TorpexXIII,

I would consider trying RFB. The escorts are not super-capable. At least not early in the war. If you play at high realism, without map contacts, or external cams, it can still be challanging.

[Hylander_1314]

Does RFB let you take the boat deeper than the test depth redline? Just curious is all.

[TorpX]

Yes, you can always go at least a little deeper than the test depth. Don't all the mods allow this? How much deeper is the question. I personally am quite reluctant to take an S-boat below 220 to 240 ft. Maybe it is ok to do so, but I don't want to end a career, just to see 'what would happen'.

[bandit484]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Yes, you can always go at least a little deeper than the test depth. Don't all the mods allow this? How much deeper is the question. I personally am quite reluctant to take an S-boat below 220 to 240 ft. Maybe it is ok to do so, but I don't want to end a career, just to see 'what would happen'.

I tested how far down you could go in my s-boat and the deadly area seems to be around 320ft. I hope this information helps with regards to developing some tactics for the s boats.

[gAiNiAc]

Well............

Maybe you need to change your mindset and your tactics will follow.

I really like TMO. It's a gas. With that being said.............

I assume that I will be detected. I expect to be detected once I attack. I usually can get by a screen. If I'm detected before I reach firing position; I just drive right on in and wreak havoc. Anywhere from a standard to flank bell. Many depth and course changes. You need to know your enemies detection capabilities............Don't sit around waiting for the cans and hope they don't knock you on the head. They will.

I try to be outside anyones detection arc by about 1000 yards..... minimal facing aspect. Deep.

From range you need to analyze the formation and the escort patterns.

From there I usually draw a line indicating the formations overall course.... (I'm thinking LARGE formations right now...just scale down as neeeded..)

Then I look at the disposition of escorts and their sweep pattern.

They all usually cover a certain amount of frontage. I look for the "thin" points where they overlap and that's where I penetrate the screen.

The buggers might get right on you....but they don't necessarily got you. You need to be able to recognize when they're just dropping versus making a dead on run over your head and unloading. Don't let them spoof you into evasive maneuvers unecessarily.

Anyhow.........the mindset change you need to make is thus; you state (paraphrased) "I was deep, silent and slow....but they heard me!!!!"

As if you shouldn't have been.

The point is...assume that you will be detected and fight as such. Be the aggressor. Screw conserving your fish. I shot 4 at a minesweeper last patrol. 3 missed, when the 4th got him.....it was a hoot, blew him out of the water......broke him in half, blew the forward section into the air and it spun upside down and then crashed into the water.

Less then a 1000 tons but the visual was certainly worth it.

Regarding evasion............

You need to pick your axis of escape and maneuver around that. It's usually the opposite direction of the formation. Change depth a lot. you don't need to necessarily maneuver drastically. All it takes is a chess like mindset. Think in terms of boat lengths.

I wish I could be more concise about my play style; a great part of it is using the hydrophones and imagining what they're doing on the surface and maneuvering ahead of the game.

A big part of it is knowing when the heat is really on and driving to periscope and fighting the boat. Down the throat shots. A whole nest of fish. Don't even think about torpedo conservation. Think boat conservation.

Oh yeah....go find Bungo Pete. He'll teach you a lot about evasion.



Have fun....

[Stoli151]

Originally Posted by TorpX

TorpexXIII,

I would consider trying RFB. The escorts are not super-capable. At least not early in the war. If you play at high realism, without map contacts, or external cams, it can still be challanging.

I really did like RFB also as well as TMO but last time I played RFB you were invisible to the enemy on the surface at night. Did this ever get fixed? I mean you could bump into an escort and it would not notice you unless you opened fire on it. Once I found this out the mod became no fun, it was too easy to just do a night surface attack on anything, unless it was late enough for the escorts or capital ships to have radar. In the daytime things seemed to work as they should. The only workaround was to take the environment folders out of the mod. The odd thing is nobody but me and a few others seemed to notice this. I wonder if it was just some kind of game settings issue? I hoped back then somebody that designed the mod could give me an answer but I think they were burned out on working on it. Too bad really I thought it was an excellent concept for a mod. If you just could fix that issue(if I'm not crazy and am not the only one having it) and take the sinking physics thing out of the mod it would be pretty excellent. I loved the sub damage model in RFB no more trading blows with DD's on the surface one hit from a large caliber round and you weren't making it back to port . Even a lucky shot from a merchant with a large deck gun could finish you if the pressure hull was breached, pretty realistic in my opinion. But when I'm up for a challenge I love TMO I hardly ever make it back to port and it's more of a finished product in my opinion.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Stoli151

I really did like RFB also as well as TMO but last time I played RFB you were invisible to the enemy on the surface at night. Did this ever get fixed? I mean you could bump into an escort and it would not notice you unless you opened fire on it. Once I found this out the mod became no fun, it was too easy to just do a night surface attack on anything.

I have not made that many night surface attacks, but on at least two occasions when I did, I was spotted. Perhaps, what you describe is possible, under certain circumstances, but I don't think it is typical. It may be partly due to design limitations of the game. I have read of similer complaints to yours about SH 3, so maybe it is a problem of the game engine being oversimplified in this regard. Usually, people complain that it is too difficult to get close at night.

[Stoli151]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I have not made that many night surface attacks, but on at least two occasions when I did, I was spotted. Perhaps, what you describe is possible, under certain circumstances, but I don't think it is typical. It may be partly due to design limitations of the game. I have read of similer complaints to yours about SH 3, so maybe it is a problem of the game engine being oversimplified in this regard. Usually, people complain that it is too difficult to get close at night.

After posting last night I decided to give RFB another go it seems from the few missions I played that the April patch seems to be the culprit. Sometimes I would be within a couple thousand yards of a destroyer during the day on the surface and it would not notice me. I think it may have something to do with fog not being rendered properly. I would see a clear day where the AI was being restricted by "the fog". If I reran the same mission without the patch I could see the fog and not the DD until we got close then he opened fire as he should. One other issue seemed to be the escorts had problems dealing with me if I was at periscope depth. I would agree with you that perhaps it is a stock game limitation but I haven't noticed such issues while playing TMO, plus the fact that I resolved one of the issues by simply not applying the April patch. But like I said I did like a lot of other things about it. I wish somebody would take up the reigns and finish it. If I had the skills I would definitely offer my help. Maybe when more people get updated hardware to properly play SH4 we will see more modders coming over to it. I think SH4 has a lot of things going for it for those that want some upgraded graphics and SH3 style gameplay but it seems all the modders are split between SH3 and 5 right now with a few lone exceptions spending time with 4(I wish whatever happened to put the kabosh on gwx4 never happened I'm sure that would have been excellent if it came to fruition). And Ducimus from what I've gathered from 2.5 is done with spending time with TMO(and I thank him for his excellent work that without I wouldn't even play sh4 anymore) so its starting to look like sh4 is at the end of the road as far as megamods go.

[TorpX]

Stoli151,

If you liked RFB otherwise, I would try a fresh copy of it (or the Apr. patch). It sounds like you may have a bad download. I don't know enough about computers to comment about possible hardware issues. I don't recall this night surface attacks being too easy issue comming up on the RFB thread. You might post it there and see if anyone else has had the same problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by RFB being "not finished". As far as I know it was finished; it is just not being actively updated.

[Lannes]

I don't know how much they have in common, but the best training I had for TMO was countless hours of GWX for SH3.

[Bilge_Rat]

sorry for ressurecting an old thread. I'm a long time RFB+RSRDC player who recently switched to TMO2.5+RSRDC and wanted to offer my 2 cents..

regarding the AI, TMO 2.5 is not substantially different or more or less realistic than RFB, it is just a different interpretation of the same reality. I have done a number of RSRDC single missions to test the AI, sometimes it finds you easier in TMO than RFB, sometimes it does'nt.

It does appear easier to be found in TMO when at periscope depth, but appears easier to avoid detection if below the thermal layer + silent running, so the trick of diving below an escort screen does work.

Looking through the TMO and RFB "sim" files, you see that TMO is not harder than RFB; it is in certain areas, but easier in others. For example, it is easier to be found in TMO than RFB in clear calm waters or during the day, but it is easier to be found in RFB than TMO in choppy waters or at night.

It is also relatively easy to escape if you are found. Going deep below the thermal layer and "silent running" usually does the trick. I have had some close calls, but have always managed to escape so far. Again, looking at the "sim" file shows that the TMO AI will give up quicker if it does not reestablish contact than the RFB AI.

As a final tip, when trying to escape from an escort, it is probably not a good idea to use bursts of "flank speed". Unlike RL, DC blasts will not mask your noise in SH. Using "flank" just makes it easier for the escort to reestablish contact. Staying at "silent running" and just using the rudder to get out of the way is usually a better long term strategy.

[Armistead]

If TMO escorts drop charges on me, I'm going flank so I can outrun them, I find going slow even at depth is a good way for a group of cans to land right on you. If you're being pinged they can't listen anyway so they don't hear you.

[EricW]

Originally Posted by Armistead

If TMO escorts drop charges on me, I'm going flank so I can outrun them, I find going slow even at depth is a good way for a group of cans to land right on you. If you're being pinged they can't listen anyway so they don't hear you.

This.....when they drop right on top of you, I go to flank with 15 degrees rudder to get out of the DC pattern. THEN go back to silent running hoping that they lose me when they come around again. It usually works and after a few runs they turn the wrong way and I'm gone. The operative word here is "usually"