So Sweden sunk (?) an american submarine

[Catfish]

Yes, you are right - not by the KGB or the South Africans.
It is not directly said in the film as well, and "Honi soit qui mal y pense", but:

The violation of swedish territorial waters by US and british subs, to make it look like russian intruders and influence the public opinion against prime minister Mr. Palme, the psychological warfare of the US to influence and shut up a befriended nation like Sweden, having the boldness to talk (!) with the Russians, could (!) suggest that. And it leaves a bad taste, diplomatically spoken.

This "russian" violation of swedish waters was stage-managed alright by the US, Britain or both, this is obvious. And as usual it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening *.
The swedish military and politics of the time did not even realize how it was deceived.

Regarding the killing:
I did not say it was the CIA. There is however a very low chance it was the KGB ? Or South Africa ? Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well.
It may well be Palme was killed by his own military, or by his own secret service consisting of right wing hawks having sympathy for, and connections with, the CIA.
The film (!) suggests that.

*It also maybe that he was just killed by a maniac, or born murderer, who knows. But it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening.

I don't accuse anyone, back then it was the cold war, and governments inofficially still murder enemies abroad.

[Catfish]

B.t.w. it is not this documentation alone, along with reconstructions there are a lot of german, danish and norvegian naval logbooks and very explicite opinions on that matter.
This action led to a political shift and a change of public opinion in Sweden against the Soviet Union, exactly as planned.
e.g.
"The secret war against sweden - us and british submarine deception in the 1980ies" from Tulander, also speaking in the vid:
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false

Page 4 from the middle, why Palme may have been a target - page 13 how the deception influenced and changed the perception of Sweden towards the russian "aggression".

[Jimbuna]

Pretty inconclusive IMHO but it would have helped greatly if I understood the language.

[Osmium Steele]

So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented?

Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret.
All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well.

What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors?

Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy?

Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast.

About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented?

Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret.
All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well.

What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors?

Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy?

Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast.

About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy.

Agreed

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well.

I didn't just pick those countries out of a hat Catfish. Palme was known for his harsh criticism of Apartheid and Soviet imperialist ambitions. I'd say there's more than a "very low chance" it was one of them.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by August

I didn't just pick those countries out of a hat Catfish. Palme was known for his harsh criticism of Apartheid and Soviet imperialist ambitions. I'd say there's more than a "very low chance" it was one of them.

Yes but you see, he was equally harsh against the aggressiveness of US politics of the time, and pi**ed off the US with his "worldwide peace negotiations".
You are right they all had an axe to grind with Palmes, but the biggest had the US. Do me the favor and read page 4 -13.
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yes but you see, he was equally harsh against the aggressiveness of US politics of the time, and pi**ed off the US with his "worldwide peace negotiations".
You are right they all had an axe to grind with Palmes, but the biggest had the US. Do me the favor and read page 4 -13.
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...page&q&f=false

I gave it a quick read. Apparently it makes a fair number of allegations but like usual with books of this sort it's short on provable facts.

Look the only people I know of who will assassinate someone after the damage is done is the Russians (see Alexander Litvinenko). If the CIA was in the habit of such things don't you think Julien Assange or Hugo Chavez or Jane Fonda, or any number of peaceniks and troublemakers would not have been terminated by now? Palme's impact as an irritant was eliminated when he left office. It would not make sense to remove a threat that has already been neutralized.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by August

...
Look the only people I know of who will assassinate someone after the damage is done is the Russians (see Alexander Litvinenko). If the CIA was in the habit of such things don't you think Julien Assange or Hugo Chavez or Jane Fonda, or any number of peaceniks and troublemakers would not have been terminated by now? Palme's impact as an irritant was eliminated when he left office. It would not make sense to remove a threat that has already been neutralized.

Well my point is the CIA did and does it like the Mossad and surely the Russians. Now they are doing it with drones and more collateral damage. Remember how much (for the US) inconvenient people died in Middle and South America, in those airplane crashes in the 1970ies amd 80ies ?
This became so bad that every plane crash was joked about in a fashion like "who now was in the plane the CIA wanted to get rid off ?".

And then i'm not sure how long Chavez is going to make it


Edit: ah i see your point like "why do it when the danger is removed" - ok. I think it's bad enough deceiving a "befriended" nation that way, to remove inconvenient politicians - this alone is the handwriting of the CIA for sure. And some guys there have been proven to be a bit resentful ?

But then you are right it is only an assumption, but imho a founded one.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

ok. I think it's bad enough deceiving a "befriended" nation that way, to remove inconvenient politicians - this alone is the handwriting of the CIA for sure.

For sure? No, I think it's anything but sure except to those who want it to be true. Oh and for the record I don't believe in any of it and that includes your reference to some unspecified plane crashes a half a century ago.

Originally Posted by heartc

But the CIA also flew the jets into the towers, August.

Exactly. And FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor and the moon landings were faked. In fact we didn't actually win WW2 or WW1 and the spirit of the Kaiser still exists in the body of Angela Merkel. You can tell by the mustache!

[heartc]

Originally Posted by August

Exactly. And FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor and the moon landings were faked. In fact we didn't actually win WW2 or WW1 and the spirit of the Kaiser still exists in the body of Angela Merkel. You can tell by the mustache!

I see there's hope yet for America. Maybe we'll even let you join the EU one day.

[Karle94]

Originally Posted by August

For sure? No, I think it's anything but sure except to those who want it to be true. Oh and for the record I don't believe in any of it and that includes your reference to some unspecified plane crashes a half a century ago.



Exactly. And FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor and the moon landings were faked. In fact we didn't actually win WW2 or WW1 and the spirit of the Kaiser still exists in the body of Angela Merkel. You can tell by the mustache!

Also, Lincoln and Kennedy were both assasinated by the US government.

[heartc]

But the CIA also flew the jets into the towers, August.

/sarc

[Catfish]

No it was a hologram and the towers were blown up, everyone knows that