Sneakiness... SH3stock vs NYGM vs LSH vs ???

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by 89

Not just for me, but for everybody with such question? Common, just answer the question instead - surely you had experience with at least several SH3 mods as well as SH4/5. You know what I'm trying to get at, if you feel that the question or the arbitrary scale needs altering - feel free, but no need to make its complicated when its quite simple poll

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

Originally Posted by jimbuna

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

What he stated and I'll add this.....
With all the Tools out there that allow even the newest of the new to set things as they wish?
Why even bother to ask others to hand you what you want?


At this point in time YOU have the ability to control your Game as You see fit.
If you don't like something? CHANGE IT in your Game.
Many do not like to compare the Mods any longer.
The Mods War was ended long ago and should not be Zombied with questions such as this.

Besides, I HATE questions that involve Math and thinking in buffer terms.

[89]

Ok so a discussion of the way stealth is implemented in various versions of Silent Hunter is based on false premises, is inaccurate, pointless and fruitless

I stated at least twice that it is the general area of the question that interests me, if the way question was setup felt wrong to anybody he was free to revise it... but no go haha

I also said that I am a newbie in subsims and do not trust my own judgement yet, so I was looking for opinions of the more experienced. I start to get the idea of what I should expect and what I should not in terms of uboat stealth, but wanted a discussion on what is the "Ideal", what part of it is realised in what version of Silent Hunter and how it is realised (remember I did not ask purely about SH3 mods, but other SHs too -SH4, maybe 5).

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

-What's this got to do with the topic? It's like several of you got sore or something. Don't be sore

This is a kind of answer I was hoping for: "

Hmm, no, if you want challenge, go for GWX! LSH3 is better for early war, in my opinion. Realistically, you could sail into the middle of a convoy on a dark night in '40 or '41 and sink all the ships you wanted, on the surface. And then make a quick getaway, also on the surface.

That tactic is suicide in GWX, but possible in LSH3.
I have not yet played late war with it (got SH4 recently, playing the U-boats there), but I have a feeling that punishing GWX AI is matching the reality quite close...

...That being said, after reading the Iron Coffins, U-Boat War Patrol, and Ace of Aces, which go into detail of early war, and Steel Boat, Iron Hearts, which deals with punishing planes and escorts in later war, '44 particularly.

" ( http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/2641047909 ) - a nicely balanced quick argument.

But here people (not all- maybe there is a small pressure group) get very touchy about discussion (seen by them as criticism) of their work (which is supurb and is very appreciated) and this leads to too much "patting each other on the back" all the time as nobody wants to upset the pressure group. And that should not be the case, imho- I love russian(?) proverb : "Truth is born in an argument". A very-very deep meaning it has.

At this point in time YOU have the ability to control your Game as You see fit.
If you don't like something? CHANGE IT in your Game.

When I asked about if it was possible to import stock SH3 gameplay settings into GWX in another thread, I rather quickly got stuck and was told by Jimbuna

You have a mammoth task ahead of you

- naturally I gave up How does one change GAMEPLAY, with what tools?

Peace

Note that your ideal response was posted in the UBI forums. Generally the community here at SubSim take a dim view of comparing the mega-mods against each other. Consider it a slap in the face of the modding teams who have spent countless hours creating the content we use to improve the entire series. For free.

The only person who can legitimately address your initial question is you, and only by trial and observation. If you cannot be bothered to see what's what first hand you should not be surprised when your inquiry is treated the way it was. Nobody here wants to re-open discussions and arguments that ended years ago and the acrimony that flowed from them. This is exactly where your subjective numerical scoring of the way which the modders addressed the issue of stealth was headed and so you got the responses above. This is why I consider your questions and methodology invalid and no doubt the reason for the curt responses from Jimbuna and Privateer, both long-time SH Modders of note and so worthy of respect.

As to your final question, the answers are in the modding threads and those in the know will likely address specific how-to questions in those forums when asked.

I am not a modder (of Silent Hunter anyway), just a consumer of mods and regular Forum member so the above is my opinion and offered without warranty. As you say, Peace. And Good Hunting...

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

The only person who can legitimately address your initial question is you, and only by trial and observation.

Absolutely, and the same holds true for all of us.

Generally the community here at SubSim take a dim view of comparing the mega-mods against each other.

Perhaps, but anyone with a copy of Multi-SH3 is likely doing just that in private. This being the case, it is often difficult to avoid expressing your honest opinion when someone pointedly asks for it.

While I understand the concerns about re-opening old wounds from the past, (and even though I have no desire to see those battles waged again), I still think we would do well to be mindful that new members are not intimately aware of them.

Consider it a slap in the face of the modding teams who have spent countless hours creating the content we use to improve the entire series. For free.

I'm sorry but I don't view a public discussion as a "slap in the face." More to the point, I don't interpret the OP's intent as trying to slap anyone in the face. IIRC he has already indicated (in another thread) that GWX is his platform of choice. As such, he has already acknowledged its worth by making it his personal pre-eminent mega-mod.

How then is asking how to best tailor it to his ability and/or playing style being disrespectful? The only 'comparison' he seemed to be seeking was whether the AI from some other source might be more friendly for a new player.

If this is sacrilege then I guess I missed the point.

This is why I consider your questions and methodology invalid and no doubt the reason for the curt responses from Jimbuna and Privateer, both long-time SH Modders of note and so worthy of respect.

I also respect them both a great deal. But what is this thing called respect? And why do I get the impression it varies from person to person?

My definition of respect means I hold them in high esteem, I am grateful for their many contributions and I try not to poke them with a stick.

That being said, there still has to be a place for constructive criticism, provided the motive is to build rather than tear down. I don't believe in sacred cows, and as great as GWX is, nothing is perfect and it could always be improved.

Does this mean I'm trying to devalue all their hard work? Absolutely not! As I value and appreciate all their contributions plus I'm quite confident they did the very best they could at the time.

I say this because I know of their passion for the project and their desire to make it the best it can be. I also share this passion, and so any criticism I may have is not from a desire to tear down but rather from a desire to see the whole picture and to encourage people to try and make it better.

Surely we can separate the two, and allow the one without feeling the other is somehow under attack.

This is exactly where your subjective numerical scoring of the way which the modders addressed the issue of stealth was headed and so you got the responses above.

If we're going to pre-judge where something is headed, then we're basically closing our minds and shutting down communication.

I know motives are often hard to discern in a forum setting and as a result many people tend to be gunshy as a natural precaution. Sadly this is a tendency that often leads to the stifling of free flowing communication. I would hope that we could rise above this aspect of human nature and consider virtually all topics open for civil discussion.

Just my two cents. Nothing personal in any of this, so please don't be offended.

As you say, Peace. And Good Hunting...

And to you as well good sir!

Had 89 asked something along the lines of "What of the super mods provides the greatest stealth for a surface U-Boat? By day? By night?" I would never have responded as I did and probably not replied at all since the vast majority of my SH3 time has been in GWX.

Rather the question was more like "On a scale of 1 to 10, with 5 being Stock and GWX being 2, how do the other Mods compare regarding surfaced daytime stealth?"

The latter is not just a different question, it's a different type of question and one that seeks to open cans of worms better left closed. At least in my opinion. I did not pretend to speak for Jimbuna or Privateer but got a sense that neither liked the way the thread was going and will apologize if I am mistaken. Both are well able to take care of themselves.

Discussion regarding features and design philosophies is not the same as numerical scoring and building some silly list from best to worse. Likewise comparing the mods using variable, arbitrary and subjective perimeters without even trying them out first hand hardly respects the creative process and effort involved producing even minor mods.

Edit

I need to add that at no time have I thought that 89 intended offence or controversy. I too have tried to remain civil while remaining in disagreement.

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Had 89 asked something along the lines of "What of the super mods provides the greatest stealth for a surface U-Boat? By day? By night?" I would never have responded as I did and probably not replied at all since the vast majority of my SH3 time has been in GWX.

As has mine, (time spent with GWX that is), which is why I felt unqualified to give a specific answer.

Discussion regarding features and design philosophies is not the same as numerical scoring and building some silly list from best to worse.

This is a valid point with which I fully agree. Thank you for taking the time to explain it a little more. My only concern here is that while this type of subjective ranking and numerical listing may seem 'silly' to you and I, new members (without the benefit of our background) do not always view it as such.

In other words, I think it would be beneficial for us to advise them a little more diplomatically rather than come across as curt and risk having some wander off thinking we're a bunch of elitist snobs or perhaps even worse.

I need to add that at no time have I thought that 89 intended offence or controversy. I too have tried to remain civil while remaining in disagreement.

And I think you have remained civil, for which I salute you.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by 89

I also said that I am a newbie in subsims and do not trust my own judgement yet, so I was looking for opinions of the more experienced. I start to get the idea of what I should expect and what I should not in terms of uboat stealth, but wanted a discussion on what is the "Ideal", what part of it is realised in what version of Silent Hunter and how it is realised (remember I did not ask purely about SH3 mods, but other SHs too -SH4, maybe 5).

As I tried to explain in my first post, for someone to even be able to approach the question they would first have had to have extensively played both mods, and most people for reasons of their own settle on one, which leaves them knowing little about the other, except for what fans of the other have written. I played RUB, the grandfather of NYGM, and a little NYGM before settling on GWX as my supermod of choice, but am still waiting for a better computer so I can give LSH3 and WAC a try. But I didn't play NYGM enough to truly compare them.

No one I'm aware of has really done an in-depth comparison of those features, so no one is truly qualified to answer the question you posed, which is why I said it was "tough".

As for your test, the furthest distance I've ever had a destroyer without radar spot me in GWX was about 7000 metres, which is about five miles, which sounds about right.

[89]

Thanks for the answers, guys! I have pretty much narroed it down to using gameplay files from LSH for early war (purely from feedback about its gameplay) and stock GWX for later war.

I need to go away for a couple of weeks though, so I will bump this thread with some more questions about realisation of stealth in Silent Hunter games once I get back

Cherio and thanks again for your patience with my newbieshness!

PS.

Rather the question was more like "On a scale of 1 to 10, with 5 being Stock and GWX being 2, how do the other Mods compare regarding surfaced daytime stealth?"

-No, no, GWX scoring was just an example of me using the (agreed to be flawed) subjective impression of stealth scales, it was not part of the "premise" of the question. The "ruler" had only one origin - stock SH, with respondents themselves choosing where to place GWX or SH4 or LSH or whatever.
But since these "psychometric" arbitrary scales were so repugnant to everyone here, I will just structure my further questions in a way Randomizer suggested.

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by 89

I need to go away for a couple of weeks though, so I will bump this thread with some more questions about realisation of stealth in Silent Hunter games once I get back

Cherio and thanks again for your patience with my newbieshness!

Very good. Enjoy the time off and hope to see you when you get back.

Well, travel safe and good hunting.

[VONHARRIS]

Here is my humble opinion:
During the last two days I have uninstalled my GWX game , made multiple installs and I played WAC4.1 vs GWX.
Well , GWX rocks!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As I tried to explain in my first post, for someone to even be able to approach the question they would first have had to have extensively played both mods, and most people for reasons of their own settle on one, which leaves them knowing little about the other, except for what fans of the other have written. I played RUB, the grandfather of NYGM, and a little NYGM before settling on GWX as my supermod of choice, but am still waiting for a better computer so I can give LSH3 and WAC a try. But I didn't play NYGM enough to truly compare them.

No one I'm aware of has really done an in-depth comparison of those features, so no one is truly qualified to answer the question you posed, which is why I said it was "tough".

As for your test, the furthest distance I've ever had a destroyer without radar spot me in GWX was about 7000 metres, which is about five miles, which sounds about right.

^