The Limits of Empathy!

[Castout]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

mankind is, and always will be falliable and broken.

we simply cant evolve in such ways as to develop a more neurological connection with one another.

you want to see the good in people, and the ideal behaviors of people, but as terrible as it is, people are never going to resolve these problems.

There will always be killing. there will always be violence, rebellion, greed, lies, adultery, ect. peace activists are wasting their breath, even though their cause is just, because the only thing that could make us put down our arms is something that will threaten us all. something like an asteroid. And if we survive it? A termporary peace would ensue as long as possible, but eventually there will be more violence.

And lies and greed by those few ruling the many, not to mention the lies and adultery that ensue in the average person's life.

sucks to come to such a realization. it just sucks.

But, this is what we live with. we must deal with it. We must make the best out of the situation, and strive to find the few people who your can pour you love, trust, and kindness into.

Well I didn't mean neurological connection at all. I mean non physical non biological connection. Aha, something new to you.

True that men are fallible, foolishly selfish and whose foolishness knows no bounds.

I believe mankind has the capacity to be good. It's just that mankind has seldom been put under the circumstances to choose. A long drawn out crisis or emergency situation would force people to choose and live to see their consequences. All I'm saying enlightenment often comes after a period of darkness and evil. Without the persecution of evil people will be grey, undecided and in doubts. Once people realize the true nature between good and evil they will realize they have to make a stand.
It's like people who are aware of evil spirits are more likely to be drawn to seek God. Without knowledge of the unseen and or evil people will assume there's no God.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Castout

Once people realize the true nature between good and evil they will realize they have to make a stand.
It's like people who are aware of evil spirits are more likely to be drawn to seek God. Without knowledge of the unseen and or evil people will assume there's no God.

Which God? From previous entries I will assume you are referring to the Abrahamic God in the Christian flavor. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming further that this God

- created ALL things
- knows all things in advance

why did he create Satan?

[Castout]

Originally Posted by heartc

Which God? From previous entries I will assume you are referring to the Abrahamic God in the Christian flavor. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming further that this God

- created ALL things
- knows all things in advance

why did he create Satan?

One true God, the God of all, the creator of all and every realm. The living Lord God who I have seen (albeit its glory) and who answered my prayers and showed me the true nature of death and more.

The thing is for every creature they are endowed with free will. I have never seen satan(unless evil spirit counts as satan or devil which is not) but it is said it was an Angel before his fall from grace.

You see satan decided to be satan on his own will. The same with people who choose evil than good. The created sufferings caused are not God's fault. They are the direct result of man's actions and decisions. If God can be faulted then He is not holy and if He is not holy all things will not submit to His will, but all things submit as I have witnessed.

I believe God doesn't know things in advance. God knows everything before everything even began in the beginning. The end is known even before it started. But that's my expression of faith alone. In practice it is seen as if God knew things in advance indeed. That is an expression of my experience.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Castout

One true God, the God of all, the creator of all and every realm. The living Lord God who I have seen (albeit its glory) and who answered my prayers and showed me the true nature of death and more.

So, is it the Abrahamic God described in the Bible? Did you see him literally, and if not, what do you mean by "I have seen him"?
How do you know he answered your prayers? Why, when he answered your prayer, didn't he answer the prayer of a Christian child in some part of Africa who starved to death? Does he only answer prayers where the solution of the problem can come about by natural means, or does he employ super-natural means to answer prayer?
If the former, how do you know he did it, and can you explain why he is limiting himself in such a way nowadays, assuming that the many supernatural wonders told in the Bible were factual.
If the later, can you please document the case and answer the question why he doesn't regrow the legs of amputees and why there is not something like mana falling from the sky on the Christian communities in Africa.

The thing is for every creature they are endowed with free will. I have never seen satan(unless evil spirit counts as satan or devil which is not) but it is said it was an Angel before his fall from grace.

You see satan decided to be satan on his own will. The same with people who choose evil than good. The created sufferings caused are not God's fault. They are the direct result of man's actions and decisions. If God can be faulted then He is not holy and if He is not holy all things will not submit to His will, but all things submit as I have witnessed.

Define good and evil. Is a "good" deed good because God likes it, or does God like good deeds because they are good?

According to the Bible, God ordered the Israelites multiple times to ransack, pillage and loot neighbouring cities and to leave no living thing therein alive (genocide). On other occasions, he ordered them to kill everybody except for the virgin girls, which instead should be taken by the men. On yet other occasions, he hardened the heart of someone so that this person was unable to do good and / or unable to see. A prominent example for this is of course the Pharao in the Book of Exodus. According to God's own words, he hardened the heart of the Pharao, preventing him from letting the Israelites go, so that he could conduct a demonstration of his glory by unleashing a number of plagues on the Egyptians, culminating in the wholesale slaughter of every single firstborn in all of Egypt, human and animal, by the angel of God, and only then lead the Israelites out of Egypt.
God also demanded the death penalty for gays and for rebellious teenagers, among others.

Are these good and just actions? You said "The created sufferings caused are not God's fault. They are the direct result of man's actions and decisions". While the second sentence is somewhat plausible - although it leaves out the huge agent of random chance and natural processes - explain to me how the first sentence is intelligible when the last thing a child sees is its parents being brutally murdered in front of it before being killed itself by a warrior who was commanded to do so by God. If that created suffering was not God's fault, was it the child's fault? Or rather, it wasn't a fault at all, but the command of God. As was flying two planes into the WTC, or so they say.

I believe God doesn't know things in advance. God knows everything before everything even began in the beginning. The end is known even before it started. But that's my expression of faith alone. In practice it is seen as if God knew things in advance indeed. That is an expression of my experience.

Sorry, but this is a gross contradiction. Either "God doesn't know things in advance" (which btw. is contradictory to the Bible), or "God knows everything before everything even began in the beginning."

So my question still stands. Why create Satan in the first place?
Why create the Angel you know will fail you? (When you create him and you know it, where exactly does free will of the subject chim in here? On a sidenote: Did Judas have free will? Someone had to be Judas in God's plan)? Why put the tree, and why put it in the >middle< of the garden, create sentient beings that are investigative, create an angel that will fall from you, seducing the beings into sinning, only to have your whole nicely done creation sabotaged? There's only three possible answers:

a) God is incompetent. Which shouldn't really seem too surprising considering that at one point he also destroyed all humans because they got corrupted, except for a single family, only to have his "new" mankind be corrupted again by this sneaky Satan fellow, the former angel that he himself created and who fooled him. Then on his third try, he sacrificed his son (to himself?), only he didn't really because the son was resurrected three days later - and he (both) knew it beforehand - and now in 2011, we are still here. And there is still suffering. And when you happen to be born in the wrong part of the world, with the wrong religion or flavor of religion, whose existence proves that God was somehow unable to at least get the message out in a way there could be no doubt about his word, chances are - at least according to many followers of all three Abrahamic religions, which are mutually exclusive - you're out of luck, because you're going straight to hell. And forever. Eternal suffering. But "He" loves you, and is the most high, the most merciful. Wow.
Well, not all is bad, since according to some flavors, you will only be killed by God in a fire.

b) God intended for it, which means he intended for evil. Which shouldn't really seem too surprising either considering he repeatedly ordered his followers to commit genocide in the past.

c) God is a fairytale. Maybe first imagined by primitve men when the first semi-abstract thinker looked up into the clouds and recognized what seemed like a face there, looking down on him. Down from the same place all this scary lightning and thunder comes from every other night. This guy must be angry. Last time someone yelled at me, he did it because he wanted my food. When I gave it to him, he strolled of. Let's do the same thing with this guy up there. And since he lives up there and doesn't come down to eat it, let's burn it and watch how he consumes the smoke up into his realm. And religion was born. Also: God ordered me to kill everbody, loot the village and rape the virgins. Right.

c) God is a fairytale. Maybe first imagined by primitve men when the first semi-abstract thinker looked up into the clouds and recognized what seemed like a face there, looking down on him.

Everyone finds out for themselves on the last day, that's when you judge yourself for what your are in the presence of God, no one escapes.

[MH]

You are going into this God thing again...
Believe whatever you want.
I see religious people living good happy life...they believe in god but it does not stop them from studying or contributing in positive way.
So in their view god created earth/universe...well...ok etc....
In many cases they are more moral and emphatic than secular people...
Certainly much less centered.
If you want jump to extremism to prove your points then have fun but its totally pointless.

I hate this atheist inquisition that amount to radical atheist fanaticism...

RELIGION---run to the hills...

[Gerald]

People of faith have different opinions, which is natural, and only they themselves can account for what they think is best in a given situation.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by sidslotm

Everyone finds out for themselves on the last day, that's when you judge yourself for what your are in the presence of God, no one escapes.

No one finds out anything on the last day, because you're dead and that's it.

No, I don't believe that any more than I believe your version. My point is that I don't know, and neither do you. You believe, and you believe your belief has sense behind it, but in the long run we don't know.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by heartc

Why, when he answered your prayer, didn't he answer the prayer of a Christian child in some part of Africa who starved to death? Does he only answer prayers where the solution of the problem can come about by natural means, or does he employ super-natural means to answer prayer?

First question - How do you know he didn't answer the prayer of a starving child in Africa? Do you know what the child prayed for? Perhaps not to be hungry anymore? So the Lord, in his mercy - chose to call the child Home where he or she would never suffer hunger again. A prayer answered - just not in the way you thought "it should be". As for how God answers prayer - it can be either through natural or supernatural means.

If the former, how do you know he did it, and can you explain why he is limiting himself in such a way nowadays, assuming that the many supernatural wonders told in the Bible were factual.
If the later, can you please document the case and answer the question why he doesn't regrow the legs of amputees and why there is not something like mana falling from the sky on the Christian communities in Africa.

First - your laying a logical trap. Your asking a finite human with limited knowledge to explain the infinite and all-knowing. Logically - that is impossible. There is no way a human can understand or explain the mind of the Lord.

However - your questions also make assumptions that are designed to "load" the question. How many miracles are listed in the Bible? How many people lived during those times - compared to today? Who is to say that the Lord is not performing miracles every day (like curing "incurable" cancer") just as many as before? With the population what it is - it simply doesn't "register" on your local news.....

As for why certain miracles don't happen - again your asking for an explanation of the mind of the Almighty. Still, if you choose to believe the Biblical history - there were many times when the Lord provided only to have people turn from Him. Now if you had experienced the same thing over and over - why would YOU continue to provide knowing that it will not bring the people closer to you? Why would you give knowing it would be unappreciated and taken for granted in a short time? Most people wouldn't. Your saying that you expect God to do so - even as you question who and what God is.....How can you have an expectation of something you clearly say you don't understand?

Define good and evil. Is a "good" deed good because God likes it, or does God like good deeds because they are good?

Its good because it fits with His will. The problem here is your trying to apply your limited perspective and ethical view to something much bigger than you. You see the trees, but not the forest.

According to the Bible, God ordered the Israelites multiple times to ransack, pillage and loot neighbouring cities and to leave no living thing therein alive (genocide). On other occasions, he ordered them to kill everybody except for the virgin girls, which instead should be taken by the men. On yet other occasions, he hardened the heart of someone so that this person was unable to do good and / or unable to see. A prominent example for this is of course the Pharao in the Book of Exodus. According to God's own words, he hardened the heart of the Pharao, preventing him from letting the Israelites go, so that he could conduct a demonstration of his glory by unleashing a number of plagues on the Egyptians, culminating in the wholesale slaughter of every single firstborn in all of Egypt, human and animal, by the angel of God, and only then lead the Israelites out of Egypt.

Emphasis added to specific portions.

Pharoah was given numerous opportunities to let the Israelites go. In Exodus 4, the Lord instructs Abraham to tell Pharoah what the ultimate cost of his rebellion will be if he does not let them leave. This is before any of the plagues. 6 times in Exodus did Pharoah harden his own heart and refuse - even given supernatural signs and wonders - that he was outmatched on every level. He was warned - and he chose multiple times to disobey. The Lord is not a liar - His judgement upon Egypt was as He said it would be. The Lord does not threaten - He promises. Once the line was crossed then the full gamut of His righteous anger was kindled and would be seen.

God also demanded the death penalty for gays and for rebellious teenagers, among others.

In the OT this was a demand of law upon the government. Such activity threatened the bloodline of Christ. While the individuals were free to reject salvation to come - their actions could not be allowed to toss it for everyone. Thus the law. In the NT, read Romans 1:26, 27 - since the Christ has come, the Lord allows nature to take its course and afflict the sinners with the natural outcome.

And people wonder today why AIDS (which initiall primarily afflicted gays and drug users - another group that defiles the body) has proven so hard to eradicate....

Rebellious teenagers: Context is important. Read Deuteronomy 21 - starting with verse 10. It tells a man the cost of what he can endure and must do in some cases should he choose to take a wife as spoil from a victory in battle. It lays out the costs long term. It is a warning and advisement. It is also important to realize that nowhere does it is say "teenager". Moses - who is credited with writing the Book, died at 120yrs of age. A "son" often lived with the family for most of their life - well into adult years of 40 or more. This is dealing with the rebellion of an adult son who continues to violate the Law. It is a matter of sooner or later with such a person. If the parents don't do it first, the Law will end up doing it later, after others have suffered the consequences of the rebel's insubordination.

Are these good and just actions?

Good? Depends on the perspective. From the Lord's - obviously yes. Just? Well, the Israelites had been slaves in Egypt for how long? Killed or sold as cattle? A few deaths in recompense are more than called for in the judicial view of the time - and the one espoused by God.

There's only three possible answers:

No - there are 4 possible answers.

D) The Lord, being infinite, omniscient and omnipotent just doesn't play by the rules you do, doesn't think like you do and doesn't conform to any standard us limited humans can fully comprehend.

[Gerald]

I would probably say that there is more than four options, everything depends on the person .... and there are a number of people on earth, with hindsight, so let the person's internal control what he or she thinks.

[CaptainMattJ.]

if it makes you happier, if it gives you an easier time of finding happiness, whether false or not, go for it. i have no problem with people believing in such things.

I have a problem with the idiocy that comes with such beliefs. That homosexuals should be stripped of their right to do what they want to do, to kill millions because of religion, to denounce evolution merely because your faith says that god created everything, ect. so on and so forth.

once you strip away all religious "reasoning", you simply have the naked view of hatred and persecution. People fall back on religion when bashing homosexuals, but when their contradictory and false views on the subject are seen through and broken, then they have nothing to fall back on. their obvious persecution simply because of their sexual preference is shown to all. Then they shall be the ones persecuted for being so intolerant and idiotic.

Or killing in the name of the "lord". Jews have been blamed for the wrongdoings of others for thousands of years. The immensely bloody crusades, the holocaust, all wasnt truly about religion. They simply used religion as a faux excuse for taking more and more from other people.

Oh, god wants us to kill these people because they believe something different. Why do YOU CARE. its THEIR life. If they want to be homosexuals, what right is it of yours to invade THEIR rights and persecute them for their life choice. what right is it of yours to kill people because they believe something different.

religion is terrible. Because people allow other human beings (fallible, corrupt, greedy human beings) to dictate What they should believe is nothing more than a plague on society.

Believe what you WANT to believe. dont let anyone else tell you otherwise. If you want to believe in a god, absolutely believe in that god. Dont let people dictate the confines of belief. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hinduism, ect. they are all a confined belief system that only leads to persecution and hate.

such is why I denounce religion. believe, but dont let a religious group tell you the confines of your belief.

Ridiculous stories such as the garden of eden, or god creates the world in 7 days, ect. is all just human corruption for power. id rather believe in a god who simply created the universe and let the universe run its course, than god creating man and woman and placing them into a garden of perfection, or creating the world in a single stroke of 7 days, or judging you and letting mankind bow to his all powerful greatness.

Because science has shown time and time again that mankind couldnt have been created from nothing in such a form or the world cant be created in 7 days, it has shown the fallacy of confined religions.

It seems ridiculous to me that so many people, in this age of science, could still believe some of the things produced from men that are just absurd...

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

And people wonder today why AIDS (which initiall primarily afflicted gays and drug users - another group that defiles the body) has proven so hard to eradicate....

You forgot those god-damned people who need blood transfusions, Mr. Falwell. Guess it was god's way to punish people with weak bodies.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

First - your laying a logical trap. Your asking a finite human with limited knowledge to explain the infinite and all-knowing. Logically - that is impossible. There is no way a human can understand or explain the mind of the Lord.

His question wasn't a logical trap at all. Your answer assumes that there is indeed a God. You don't know this to be true, any more than the atheist actually knows it to be false. Your "logic" is based on faith, and is therefore no logic at all. It only makes sense if it's true, and we don't know that.

However - your questions also make assumptions that are designed to "load" the question. How many miracles are listed in the Bible? How many people lived during those times - compared to today? Who is to say that the Lord is not performing miracles every day (like curing "incurable" cancer") just as many as before? With the population what it is - it simply doesn't "register" on your local news.....

Unfortunately that argument still has the same problem. How many miracles are listed in the Illiad? How many times does cancer just go away for no apparent reason? The answer is that we don't know. You can ascribe it to God. That doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make it not so, but justifying it as if you know for a fact it's real also doesn't make it so. Again, you have no logic or reason to fall back on, just faith. You may be right - I don't know. But to assume you're right and use that as an arguing point is an invalid assumption, faulty logic and bad reasoning.

As for why certain miracles don't happen - again your asking for an explanation of the mind of the Almighty.

No, he's asking why one person claims to have actually seen God when the vast majority have not. Is it because the vast majority of us are evil? Possibly. Is it because the vast majority don't have enough faith, or place their faith in the wrong God? Maybe. Is it because, as you believe, that God's reasons are his own and it's not for us to know, or to question. Could be. I'm not challenging your faith, because I don't know that you're wrong. I am challenging your misuse of reason to defend what no one can see (except apparently the chosen few), and to attempt to explain what you say cannot be explained.

Still, if you choose to believe the Biblical history - there were many times when the Lord provided only to have people turn from Him. Now if you had experienced the same thing over and over - why would YOU continue to provide knowing that it will not bring the people closer to you? Why would you give knowing it would be unappreciated and taken for granted in a short time? Most people wouldn't. Your saying that you expect God to do so - even as you question who and what God is.....How can you have an expectation of something you clearly say you don't understand?[/quote]
Or it's an attempt to explain why bad things happen, and the authors didn't have any more clue that we do. Heartc doesn't have an expectation of God, he just asked why. You don't have an explanation, other than "God works in mysterious ways". That's no explanation at all.

Its good because it fits with His will. The problem here is your trying to apply your limited perspective and ethical view to something much bigger than you. You see the trees, but not the forest.

In this respect none of sees anything at all. People like me ask questions. People like you see every question as a challenge. The problem there of course is that some of the questioners really disbelieve, rather than not believe, and they really are challenging rather than questioning. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to see some genuine evidence, and I haven't yet.

Pharoah was given numerous opportunities to let the Israelites go.

If it really happened at all. There's no evidence outside the Bible.

And people wonder today why AIDS (which initiall primarily afflicted gays and drug users - another group that defiles the body) has proven so hard to eradicate....

I would agree, but I still have to ask: Is there the slightest evidence beyond your belief that this as anything to do with God?

D) The Lord, being infinite, omniscient and omnipotent just doesn't play by the rules you do, doesn't think like you do and doesn't conform to any standard us limited humans can fully comprehend.

Or The Lord doesn't exist at all, and everything is what it is because it is. Again, I don't know that you're wrong, but you keep assuming that you're right. I suppose you have to if you want to continue believing, but you fall far off base when you criticize someone else's "logic".

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

His question wasn't a logical trap at all. Your answer assumes that there is indeed a God.

The question is a logical trap Steve. You can't ask for an explanation of something that doesn't exist in the context of a debate. The question itself establishes (for the sake of the discussion purpose) that the subject - in this case - God, exists.

Its one thing to say "prove God exists". Its another to say "explain God to me". The first questions the existence of the subject, the second question is based on the accepted existence of the subject.

My answer assumes there is a God based upon his question.

You can't debate why concrete ships can float if one debate team refuses to recognize that concrete exists to start with.

Unfortunately that argument still has the same problem. How many miracles are listed in the Illiad? How many times does cancer just go away for no apparent reason? The answer is that we don't know. You can ascribe it to God. That doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make it not so, but justifying it as if you know for a fact it's real also doesn't make it so.

Heartc's post specifically referenced the Bible, and thus that is the best source to answer him from. The example of miracles in the Illiad don't apply since that was not part of the debate. Were it considered a valid source of information about the Xtian Diety, then maybe it could apply. Since it is not, it doesn't. Now your right that "we don't know".

Again, you have no logic or reason to fall back on, just faith.

I know by faith - which is not tangible or provable. So I accept the point your making here. However, reason does apply. Like every other believer, I have questioned too. Reason is part of what makes faith so powerful. There is a logical, straightforward path in faith if you truly seek it. But that isn't something I can give to anyone - it must be sought after individually.

No, he's asking why one person claims to have actually seen God when the vast majority have not. Is it because the vast majority of us are evil? Possibly. Is it because the vast majority don't have enough faith, or place their faith in the wrong God? Maybe. Is it because, as you believe, that God's reasons are his own and it's not for us to know, or to question. Could be. I'm not challenging your faith, because I don't know that you're wrong. I am challenging your misuse of reason to defend what no one can see (except apparently the chosen few), and to attempt to explain what you say cannot be explained.

Now perhaps I misread what Castout said - but I think he said he has seen the GLORY of God. Now what that means to him, I can't say. I have seen the glory of God many times - but I have never seen God. But then again, some of what I would call the glory of the Almighty, others might just call a sunrise or a medically unexplained mystery. Like all else, perspective is individual.

Or it's an attempt to explain why bad things happen, and the authors didn't have any more clue that we do. Heartc doesn't have an expectation of God, he just asked why. You don't have an explanation, other than "God works in mysterious ways". That's no explanation at all.

I disagree. The question was basically "are these good and just actions" by God in reference to various raised issues. My answer was not that "God works in mysterious ways" - my answer was yes they are - because the Almighty (whose presence is, for the discussion, established by the mere question) chooses it to be. The question of "why" is then answered with the fact that God sees the forest while we see the trees. The question is about the Abrahamic God, so the attributes of that Diety as described in the source document we are using (the Bible) are fair for me to point out in relation to our own, more limited human viewpoint.

People like me ask questions. People like you see every question as a challenge. The problem there of course is that some of the questioners really disbelieve, rather than not believe, and they really are challenging rather than questioning. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to see some genuine evidence, and I haven't yet.

I took the question as an opportunity to help make clear the issues raised. Yes, there was a tone of disbelief in the questions. Still, maybe a bit will help someone - either a believer be stronger in their faith, or a sinner come a little closer to the Lord.

As for proof - the only proof is what you experience for yourself. Otherwise you have to wait for the Tribulation. I am guessing that a really sizable portion of the world's population just disappearing without a trace is pretty good proof. Honestly, I would hope that no one has to deal with the aftermath though as a new believer, but there will be those that do.

If it really happened at all. There's no evidence outside the Bible.

Actually there is some proof, but irrefutable proof means we would have to be able to see it happen, and that isn't in the cards. However, the questions regarding the plagues specifically are from the Bible. Why is it inappropriate to answer a question based upon Scripture with other Scripture? Not sure what the problem here is.

I would agree, but I still have to ask: Is there the slightest evidence beyond your belief that this as anything to do with God?

Circumstancial evidence, yes. Direct, smoking gun evidence, no.
If you want to delve into that subject, we can.

Or The Lord doesn't exist at all, and everything is what it is because it is. Again, I don't know that you're wrong, but you keep assuming that you're right. I suppose you have to if you want to continue believing, but you fall far off base when you criticize someone else's "logic".

Herein lies the problem with that arguement: Science cannot explain what was before the big bang. It cant explain where the matter came from to have a big bang. It cant explain why - against unfathomable odds, single cell life came into being. It can't explain why, again challenging unfathomable odds, you and I can sit here as human being's on a world that works for us, able to communicate, able to appreciate the majesty of the mountains or hear the babbling of a stream. Science just can't come up with a full construct of how everything simply WORKS. The odds against it all coming together "as it is" is beyond the human mind to wrap around. Yet here we are. THAT defies logic.

So I look at an answer that makes more sense. The "chances" that there is an intelligent mind behind it all, that designed it and all the wonderful, cool interconnects - beyond what we can take in all at once (but we continue to learn and be astounded) is a lot more likely. The way the universe works is just too wondrous - too amazing - for it to have happened randomly. Everywhere you look you can see the design behind it. To look at what science knows about the universe, about the human brain, about atomic particles or gravity or thousands of other things and deny a design boggles the mind.

E=MC2 is a bit much for random chance, don't you think?

However - yes - for the sake of the discussion I "assumed" I am right, because the question is predicated on me being right about the existence of the Almighty.

[heartc]

Thank you for your response, CaptainHaplo. Though I will submit that it is not me laying logical traps, but rather you falling for logical fallacies. And to clarify: In one of your later responses you said to SailorSteve that for the sake of argument I would assume that the God of the Bible is real. That is not quite so, or this discussion would be pointless.

It is rather like that: "You" (the believer / proponent of that) are telling me that it is so. You are making the positive claim. I'm in the neutral position initially. I look out the window, or up into the sky, and I don't see him. That doesn't prove anything either way, of course. So, I look at why you are making the claim, and one of the things you (the proponent) does is pointing to a book compiled of a number of 2000+ year old scripts from the Middle East. You also tell me that this God you are referring to is not only real, but he is a perfect and benevolent being with perfect love, perfect justice, that we all should strive for him, and indeed, must strive for him or at the end of our days, we will not only die, but after that end up in a terrible place for all eternity, because he has a certain ruleset and if you didn't obey it you are doomed. These are all bold claims and since when I look out the window I see nothing indicating this specific figure with these specific properties, I then decide to take a look at the book you are referring to and are basing your claims on.

What you then did for the most part of your response, was that whenever I pointed out logical inconsistencies, or evidence for actions that are not only not lovely, and not just, but appalling in the highest degree to any sentient moral and emphatic being, your response was that there is mistake on my part to approach your claims with logic, since the figure, by its nature, cannot be understood by logic. There are a number of severe problems with that response though:

- You yourself are applying attributes to the figure like love and justice. These are concepts that are known and knowable to man. So when man looks at the book and points out the many instances therein that are in gross violations of these concepts - like ordering the slaughter of baby childs and raping of women - you say that these are not violations of the concepts of love and justice, but instead God's concept of love and justice is beyond human comprehension. So, what you are basicly doing there is completely remove any meaning from the words love and justice. When a sign of love and / or justice can at the same time mean giving food to someone and ordering the raping of women or slaughter of children, then "love" and / or "justice" do not have any consistent properties by which they could be described, thus these words become completely meaningless.
But, tracking our steps back to the initial position, remember that it was *you* (the proponent) who decribed your God to have these properties / characteristics. So, you either stand by the terms love and justice as concepts where certain outcomes must and must not follow, or you didn't describe your God AT ALL. Which begs the question of: If you didn't describe him at all, what are you talking about in the first place? If your God cannot be subject to logic, then there is no possible way for man to talk about him and the discussion must end instantly, or actually, cannot even begin.
If he is not subject to logic, we could as well discuss "Red triangles in my head above the sand, but brighter, together with the pink unicorn, are slow, but fast, and will judge you at the end of days." Which also begs the question, why do you apply logic to EVERYTHING else in your life, but when it comes to your GOD, you totally surrender logic. Which then begs the question, why would God, *now* assuming that he exists, present himself in such a way as to be not understandable by logic, which must lead to many humans, who are surviving in their world by applying logic everyday, to not be able to believe in him and thus be lost and damned in eternal hellfire ultimately? Is that, too, a question that is not applicable? Do you need to disable your brain, that God gave you, and become "retarded" to be saved? This is not meant as an offense, but instead it is exactly what must follow if God is exempt from logical inquiery.

- Your response is a severe case of circular reasoning, or rather, a non sequitur. You are saying: "There is a God, he has a book, which is either his divine word and / or the records of him revealing himself to man, and he has properties X, Y and Z, and you should worship him because he is real". When I say: "Actions x, y and z described in his book are in contradiction to properties X, Y and Z, so who is he again (what are his properties again), so whom should I worship and why?" You say: "Don't ask questions, silly, just do it. You not understanding him with your "human" logic is proof that he is real, and God." Taken further, you could as well say: "You not seeing him is proof that he exists." Do you apply that reasoning to anything else in your life? Probably not, because you recognize it as a logical fallacy. Except when it comes to your God. Because he is beyond logic. But so is the Pink Unicorn. Why do you not worship it? Because it doesn't have a book? Suppose it had one, would you worship it? Why do you worship the desert God of an Iron Age Middle Eastern tribal nation of goat herders, who - if the Bible is historically correct - commited gross attrocities on neighbouring tribes, justifying them by reference to him, instead of Vishnu or Zeus? Are you worshipping him BECAUSE he is beyond logic, or inspite of it? Would you worship Vishnu rather than the desert God if you were born in India, or Zeus if you were born in ancient Greece? What makes you assume you got "the right deity", when this deity cannot even be understood by logic??? And remember, "logic" is not just a word you can discard, it is the very means of reasoning. Without it, I would continue with saying that alkdhjbzlfkhg----------34jwghliw4zhi4lkdfsgnhgia8.

- There's another thing about this "Because he is God, us humans cannot understand his ways". There is an interesting story in the Bible in the book of Job. It exactly deals with "Making NO sense whatsoever for YOU, silly!"
From Jobs perspective, all of a sudden - out of the blue - so to say, he gets hit with a lot of very very bad things. His sons and daughters dieing, he losing all his wealth, getting severely ill, his body degenerating grossly. He doesn't understand it, because he was the most upright and God fearing man under the sun, not according to his own views, but according to God.
Yet he gets smashed. Some friends come along to talk to him. They suspect that maybe he wasn't all that good after all, and he should repent, then all will be good again. But Job insists that he was indeed perfect unto the Lord, but God smashed him anyway, but also says that's OK after all, because God is great and who knows his ways. Later, when God speaks out of the thunderstorm, he indeed confirms that Job's friends are talking out of their behind with their blame game and Job was indeed speaking rightly (so, he smashed him for no earthly discernible reason). Then he restores everything Job had before, and then some, including a new family (I wonder if Job was still a bit bothered though that God stopped at the restoring thing when it would have meant to resurrect his dead former children. Or maybe you didn't care back then and children were interchangable, cultural background and all that...).

What is quite kind of God about this story is that he lets YOU, the reader (not Job, mind you! He had to just suck it up), look behind the scenes. What infact transpired in HIS realm to cause so much grief to Job. God gives the reader THE REASON for it. Let's see what it was:

Turns out that one day, "the Sons of God" (whoever that is, theologians frequently cope out with calling them "heavenly beings" - though the Sons of God at one point in the OT also came down to earth and had sex with humans, which resulted in the tribe of giants, so whatever) walked up to God, and Satan "was also among them." The Lord asks him "Where do you come from?" Satan tells him he just returned from a roundtrip on the earth. Then the Lord asked him "Did you see my servant Job? He's the most upright of them all." If this is not a friendly conversation, and we must assume it can't be, then it means God is boasting unto Satan. And indeed, Satan responds with "Yeah, big deal. You think he is so upright unto you for nothing? You made him most rich and gave him a happy life. Take that away from him and see how it works out for you!" And the bet is on. God does exactly that. Well, actually, not he himself. He let's Satan actually do the dirty deed. But first, he forbids him to touch Job's body. So, Satan goes ahead and destroys Jobs wealth and kills his children. But Job's response to that is not that he is falling off from God, but instead he says "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Praise the name of the Lord!". And did not sin and did not rebel against God.
Then, some other day, again the Sons of God, with Satan among them, walk up to the Lord. Same story with the roundtrip. Then God asks: "Did you see my servant Job? He is the most... etc. and he still keeps to his piety, yet you brought me to ruin him for no reason / on no basis."
Satan says "Ha! Taking away his wealth and children wasn't enough. Touch his body and he will denounce you!" So God agrees to Satans proposal of raising the stakes in that little game and once more gives Job into the hands of Satan, this time his health.
And God wins the second round, too, since Job doesn't turn away from God.

OK. So what was happening here? God was playing what amounts to a perverted betting game with Satan, which entailed unimaginable suffering and grief to a human being on earth. THIS is all there is to it. Why would he do that? Is he doing it because he is insecure himself? If he knows the future, and in many parts of his book he says he does, he must have known that Job will not fall away from him. So if this can't be the reason, he must be doing it to spite Satan. The Satan that he himself created and that he is going to destroy at some point after the end of the world. What is the point of spiting him, especially if it entails severe human suffering? Does that mean God is bored sometimes so that he takes delight in spiting Satan from time to time, and the price for that is human suffering? Or does God indeed NOT know the future, which would severly contradict other stories in the Bible, albeit this story here would make a lot more sense if he didn't and if he isn't omniscient, and which would indeed be indicated by the initial question of "Where do you come from (Satan)?" If he doesn't know the future, he indeed did take the bet out with Satan because he was curious himself. Either way, if God is playing games with Satan that entail severe human suffering, either out of curiousity or out of spite, in a universe that HE created, where the ultimate price the human subject in the petridish might even pay when he fails the test is eternal hellfire, what does that make God? What the hell is this?

Now, think about it. What makes more sense: Is that the description of a real God, of the creator of the universe, who came up with things like e=mc^2 (actually, Einstein "came up" with it. I wonder if it turns out to be false, then you'll never hear a believer say that again...), a God of love and justice, as Christians would have you believe, a benevolent being, your personal friend, or is it rather that what we have here is a primitive story made up by simple men to explain suffering when it doesn't make sense to them, especially when they feel they did nothing wrong towards their God, of men who also had the luxury of not having to bring all of this to terms with hundreds of different other stories, even some about a man who claimed he was God himself, or his son, or both (as did many other men) and acted quite differently to the ravaging, petty, jealous, cruel and genocidal God of Old, and which would some thousand years later be compiled into a single book and still make any sense and be coherent. But this is what "Christianity" is trying to sell you. They are telling you that the reason your child / mother / husband whoever died tragically in an accident was because the invisible man in the sky is playing betting games about your soul with the devil! Oh, and btw. he also made the universe and intelligently designed DNA and what not, when he was not just busy playing poker. Give me a break, man.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

First question - How do you know he didn't answer the prayer of a starving child in Africa? Do you know what the child prayed for? Perhaps not to be hungry anymore? So the Lord, in his mercy - chose to call the child Home where he or she would never suffer hunger again. A prayer answered - just not in the way you thought "it should be". As for how God answers prayer - it can be either through natural or supernatural means.

If I were to answer as an atheist, I would have to say that this is response is hideously cynical and inhuman. But since you are arguing from a certain proposition and because I made the same kind of mental acrobatics when I was a Christian, I know that it is not meant cynical at all. But it is intellectually dishonest. Actually, it's absurd and another logical fallacy. Here's why: If God would have thrown something like mana from heaven, you would have said: "See, this is proof of the Lord!" And when NOTHING
AT ALL happens and the child just DIES from HUNGER, you say "See, this is proof of the Lord! He mercifully let the child die".

Wow. You see any problem with that? Also, should we try and stop fighting hunger via charity, since God mercifully takes care of that for us by letting the people die?

However - your questions also make assumptions that are designed to "load" the question. How many miracles are listed in the Bible? How many people lived during those times - compared to today? Who is to say that the Lord is not performing miracles every day (like curing "incurable" cancer") just as many as before? With the population what it is - it simply doesn't "register" on your local news.....

Cancer just disappearing is an observed medical phenomena that is not yet explained. Like when we didn't understand why the sun wasn't falling from the sky. Maybe, as we did with other things, we should go ahead and continue investigating phenomenas such as this by scientific means, so that maybe some day, we will be able to cure cancer, like we were able with many other diseases, instead of ascribing it to the Desert God because we do not currently understand it. And rest assured, if science will
ever find a cure for cancer, it will be Christians like you who will say "God gave the scientists the cure for cancer!", while today you say "It's a miracle!". You contributed nothing. And neither did the Desert God. Actually, you might have been in the way of science by probably proposing to teach the "Controversy" at centers of education, i.e. Science vs Intelligent Design, Science vs. the Magic Spells of the Desert God.

As for why certain miracles don't happen - again your asking for an explanation of the mind of the Almighty.

Oh yeah, my fault, sorry. Let's just stop talking at all then. About anything. If that makes more sense.

Still, if you choose to believe the Biblical history - there were many times when the Lord provided only to have people turn from Him. Now if you had experienced the same thing over and over - why would YOU continue to provide knowing that it will not bring the people closer to you? Why would you give knowing it would be unappreciated and taken for granted in a short time? Most people wouldn't. Your saying that you expect God to do so - even as you question who and what God is.....How can you have an expectation of something you clearly say you don't understand?

So, God is sulking?? Here we have the inefficient God again. Not knowing how to properly show the humans that he is the creator of all things, trying out different means and then abandoning them again when they didn't work for those pesky humans. At some point, he must have been quite convinced that it'll work, since it is what Jesus used to establish his authority for
claiming to be God. He also said that his followers will be able to do wonderous things in his name, like drink deadly poison and live, heal the sick etc.
Also, there is a number of things God, the creator of the Universe, could have done to ensure that people in 2000 years wouldn't just have to rely on a 2000 year old compiled and contradictionary book that describes fancy magic tricks by an obscure figure in the middle east, magic tricks you will find in ANY number of other religions, like walking on water, curing the sick. Here might be some suggestions:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStamp...35/zOfjkl-3SNE

Its good because it fits with His will. The problem here is your trying to apply your limited perspective and ethical view to something much bigger than you. You see the trees, but not the forest.

Emphasis added to specific portions.

Pharoah was given numerous opportunities to let the Israelites go. In Exodus 4, the Lord instructs Abraham to tell Pharoah what the ultimate cost of his rebellion will be if he does not let them leave. This is before any of the plagues. 6 times in Exodus did Pharoah harden his own heart and refuse - even given supernatural signs and wonders - that he was outmatched on every level. He was warned - and he chose multiple times to disobey. The Lord is not a liar - His judgement upon Egypt was as He said it would be. The Lord does not threaten - He promises. Once the line was crossed then the full gamut of His righteous anger was kindled and would be seen.

No no no. You know better than that, when you are a pastor. Let's keep honest here, shall we. There was no imaginary line in the story crossed by the Pharao. You just made that up. I grant you that not after every single plague it said "The Lord hardened his heart". It sometimes says instead "His heart was hardened", which can very well mean, and probably does mean, by the Lord, if the Lord did it after the plague before or the plague thereafter. At one point it also said "The Pharao hardened his heart" -
which however does not exclude God's manipulation, especially if it was established in the very BEGINNING of the story, when God tells Moses of his PLAN, that "I (the Lord) will harden his heart, so that he will not let you go." This is pretty damn clear man. There is no imaginary line anywhere in the story that if Pharao had not crossed it, God had not "hardened his heart". You made it up to get something like reasoning into the story, to make it look like God first gave a shot across the bow, while in the
real story the Pharao and the Egyptians are nothing but a tool to God to demonstrate his power and bring exactly ten plagues upon them and the ten plague was exactly planned to be the murder of every single firstborn in all of Egypt, human and animal.

This, my friend, is a story and a picture of God primitive men would come up with, in a time where there was still at contest going on among different desert tribes and people, about who owns the land and on what authority, about MY God is bigger than YOUR God. And because that is so, you need to do mental acrobatics and invent imaginary lines that were crossed by the Pharao to make God look more humanistic in nature. The God of love and Einstein and all that. Which would fail even if there had been an imaginary line: Why the hell kill the firstborn, including baby childs, of EVERYBODY?
Btw, do you know what your Bible says about those who "change the word of God"? Repent!

In the OT this was a demand of law upon the government. Such activity threatened the bloodline of Christ. While the individuals were free to reject salvation to come - their actions could not be allowed to toss it for everyone. Thus the law. In the NT, read Romans 1:26, 27 - since the Christ has come, the Lord allows nature to take its course and afflict the sinners with the natural outcome.

And people wonder today why AIDS (which initiall primarily afflicted gays and drug users - another group that defiles the body) has proven so hard to eradicate....

Rebellious teenagers: Context is important. Read Deuteronomy 21 - starting with verse 10. It tells a man the cost of what he can endure and must do in some cases should he choose to take a wife as spoil from a victory in battle. It lays out the costs long term. It is a warning and advisement. It is also important to realize that nowhere does it is say "teenager". Moses - who is credited with writing the Book, died at 120yrs of age. A "son" often lived with the family for most of their life - well into adult years of 40 or more. This is dealing with the rebellion of an adult son who continues to violate the Law. It is a matter of sooner or later with such a person. If the parents don't do it first, the Law will end up doing it later, after others have suffered the consequences of the rebel's insubordination.

OK, this is just too absurd to warrant much further comment, especially in light of all I wrote above. But since I can't hold me back:

- Why is the salvation of man by an all powerfull God dependent on who has sex with whom, so that at some point some special person can be born, who is actually God incarnate, who will take all the sin of the world upon him while being totally innocent himself, thus being the only proper (and human) sacrifice that God himself can accept (God is quite bloodthirsty even in the NT, isn't he?) so that he can forgive all the humans, which were all born with original guilt for something 2 people did at
the beginning of the world. And btw, he also designed DNA sometime before all that. Before he intelligently designed the humans to fall for sin. Who btw also have some parts in and on their body that would indicate animal ancestors, and DNA itself, just to confuse those humans into the false religion of "Evolution", I guess, so that less be saved. Hello?
Or, short version: God could only come into the world if some gay people died first. I see.

- Context is not important when someone proposes the death penalty for teenagers being stubborn. Also, the text doesn't speak of ANY age limitations. Are you making things up again? And even if it did, from which age on do you propose does stubborness warrant the death penalty?

- AIDS. Aside from what has already been pointed out to you, that AIDS does not just befall evil gays and drug users, I wouldn't try to build a case for the Desert God on that one if I were you. Totally aside from it showing another case of gross cruelty, I wonder what people like you will say when at one point in the future we might find a cure for it. It hasn't been around that long, and there were cures found for sicknesses that were around much longer. Have we then won against the Desert God, by breaking another tool of his wrath? Or did he then mercifully decide at that point that now, after millions of death, including thousands of children in Africa who were neither gay nor drug users, we may find the cure? Or should we stop looking for it so that your Desert God can go on with punishing those whicked people? I think I now understand why the Pope is against the use
of condoms.

Good? Depends on the perspective. From the Lord's - obviously yes. Just? Well, the Israelites had been slaves in Egypt for how long? Killed or sold as cattle? A few deaths in recompense are more than called for in the judicial view of the time - and the one espoused by God.

Yes, it always depends on the perspective. Since I do not want to be the one to summon Godwin's Law, I leave you to decide what would be written here now if I did.
And yes, I guess a few deaths of 2 month olds etc. are more than called for. Especially if you are an all powerfull being that could have just prevented the Israelites from becoming slaves in the first place, or do any number of things INSTEAD OF KILLING, among others, baby childs. Jesus Christ, really. Also, "a few deaths" - I will leave the mathematics to you to figure out the number when it says "EVERY FIRSTBORN IN ALL OF EGYPT". And why the animals, too? Because the question of guilt didn't even matter. It was a power demonstration of a blood-thirsty and genocidal God which is in line with other actions he did either himself or ordered his people to do.



So there. This is what I can discern just from the book you told me is of the one who created the universe. We don't even have to talk about absurd claims of intelligent design or historical accuracy of the Bible, because both these things would just fly into your face, and might neither prove nor disprove the Desert God anyway, because that would depend on how literal the proponent's Christian flavor takes the Bible.







Sorry for the long post. On the upside, I guess this is all I have to say about that.

Also, these videos pretty well drive home my points, so I want to link them here:

Morality:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStamp...12/zXO26pObTZA

And on a more funny note:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStamp...33/Pt66kbYmXXk

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStamp...58/QecUUnLNSiY

Intelligent Design:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStamp...32/4_G9awnDCmg


http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStamp...39/wKtuk0ZpnbY