Major oil deposits in Israel

How do squatters deserve a state? It's like them moving to Greece and expecting you to give up some of your own land.

Be fair, there was always a fairly sizable Jewish population in the region, they are not all immigrants.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Be fair, there was always a fairly sizable Jewish population in the region, they are not all immigrants.

All Israeli Jews care a lot about your opinion and historical perspective.
Lest be fair-some do.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by MH

All Israeli Jews care a lot about your opinion and historical perspective.
Lest be fair-some do.

My understanding is that previous Jewish state was defeated and conquered by Roman Republic in 63 BC. Its successor Roman Empire made its best to destroy anything left of Judea in 1st and 2nd centuries anno domini.

Depending how you want to count there wasn't Jewish state in around 1800-2000 years (rounded numbers), next being modern Israel from 1948. After the Roman time it have been just part of various empires or countries.

Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere (I'm not perfect) and tell me how Jewish people have more valid claim to Palestine (one name among others) than people now referred to as Palestinians?

[joegrundman]

Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere (I'm not perfect) and tell me how Jewish people have more valid claim to Palestine (one name among others) than people now referred to as Palestinians?

people arrived with weapons and made it so.

it is the same way that the:

hebrews took over the land from the cannanites
the egyptians took over from the hebrews
the babylonians from the egyptians
the persians from the babylonians
the greeks from the persians
the romans from the greeks
the arabs from the romans
the crusaders from the arabs
the turks from the crusaders
the british from the turks
the jews from the british (who were departing anyway)

why the tears? the big question is who's next? or is it like full circle now and we can expect the egyptians again? - they'd like to think so, i'm sure

and just in case you think it's special in that part of the world, it's how america became the usa, how siberia became russian, how england became english, how hungary became hungarian..and if you look far enough back, how pretty much everywhere became what it is.

At least the jews have SOME claim in religious texts acknowledged by all peoples in the area, and even any claim at all is more than most invaders in this world have or had.

Furthermore upon the founding of Israel, even though an event driven by european jews, shortly afterwards the middle-eastern and north african jews emigrated in large numbers to isreal. effectively all the old jewish centers in the middle-east are empty now, with most of the former ME jewish population living in isreal. (egypt simply expelled ALL the jews after the 6-day war - a move that has not been associated with much international rending of hair and gnashing of teeth)

so one could say it hasn't been an invasion, but a reshuffle. But when certain individuals in the middle east fantasize about sending the jews of israel back to where they came from, i somehow doubt that they have in mind sending them back to live in Teheran, Baghdad, Cairo and other cities in the Muslim world.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps they wouldn't mind, and think it right that jews get to live or die by the will of the muslim majority.

Anyway...on a lighter note, a quotation from an Israeli that i like (i'm remembering it the best i can):

" The problem the Europeans have with Israel is that they dreamed of having a new European state in the Middle East, but what they got was a new Middle Eastern state in the Middle East"

effectively all the old jewish centers in the middle-east are empty now, with most of the former ME jewish population living in isreal.

I could have sworn that the US, France and South America were the primary destinations for the former middle eastern populations, with the exception of the Morrocans and Iraqi in the 1950s who mainly went to Israel.

egypt simply expelled ALL the jews after the 6-day war - a move that has not been associated with much international rending of hair and gnashing of teeth

Did they?
CAPS LOCK strikes again.

[Blood_splat]

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I could have sworn that the US, France and South America were the primary destinations for the former middle eastern populations, with the exception of the Morrocans and Iraqi in the 1950s who mainly went to Israel.

You would have sworn.

Will UN back Israelis killing women and children when missiles from west bank fall on Tel Aviv?

Bunker mentality again.
Have you ever perhaps thought that killing women and children isn't very efffective if you are trying to target missiles.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I could have sworn that the US, France and South America were the primary destinations for the former middle eastern populations, with the exception of the Morrocans and Iraqi in the 1950s who mainly went to Israel.


Did they?
CAPS LOCK strikes again.

oh wow! capslock strikes again! that's big of you to don the mantle of patroller of proper form in internet discussion. I used limited uppercase for emphasis.

what's your justification for your excessive and childish use of emoticons, that renders that such a superior form of polite discussion and allows you to stand on the giddy heights and pass disdain on someone who may press the shift button for the occasional word?

anyway, it's true many jews also settled in france. South America i know less about. Argentina took in a large number of ashkenazi just before ww2, but that's different.

around the time of the 6-day war, jews in several arab countries had their citizenships revoked, and for other reasons life became difficult in those countries. Israel was prepared to settle them all within her borders and give them citizenship.

you may contrast this with the response to Palestinians arriving as refugees in neighbouring arab countries.

One might be led to think there was some overarching policy behind these differing experiences.

oh wow! capslock strikes again! that's big of you to don the mantle of patroller of proper form in internet discussion. I used limited uppercase for emphasis.

Yes, and you put the emphasis on a point that isn't actually true. Thats when CAPSLOCK strikes
Its a frequent occurance when someone puts the emphasis in big letters, they draw attention to the very thing that diminishes their point rather than emphasises it.
You could have chosen any of whole pile of nasty crap Egypt did to its Jewish population over a period of several decades, but if you want to claim that at one specific point they did something to ALL then you had better be sure it was all, you ought to also check about the international protests about its actions too over the expulsions, imprisonments and murders.
Which of course could tie in nicely with peace plan proposalsd concerning jewish refugees from arab/muslim states and the occupied territories as six of the recent different proposals from different factions/states deal with the problem of that too.

what's your justification for your excessive and childish use of emoticons

excessive? childish?
A picture paints a thousand words.

One might be led to think there was some overarching policy behind these differing experiences.

Really, you mean one might be desperate to bring in as many people as possible from outside to try and address the local demographic inbalance it has always had and probably always will have.

[MH]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

My understanding is that previous Jewish state was defeated and conquered by Roman Republic in 63 BC. Its successor Roman Empire made its best to destroy anything left of Judea in 1st and 2nd centuries anno domini.

Depending how you want to count there wasn't Jewish state in around 1800-2000 years (rounded numbers), next being modern Israel from 1948. After the Roman time it have been just part of various empires or countries.

Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere (I'm not perfect) and tell me how Jewish people have more valid claim to Palestine (one name among others) than people now referred to as Palestinians?

Here we go again....
There wasn't Jewish state for 2000 years blah blah blah....Still there are Jewish people.
From my perspective there is no difference between 2000 years and 20 years
Jews had been hunted all over Europe including modern "civilised" history.
Return to land of Israel was always Jewish dream which seriously began with mostly secular Zionist movement.

Do palestinians deserve their own state?
Facts on the ground are as such that Jews and Palestinians need to compromise.
Question is what is the nature of compromise and if compromise will end the conflict.
Abu mazen talk about settlements because it sounds right for his cause.
At the same time PA official put out statement that Palestinian state must be Jews free while they argue about returning millions of Palestinian refugees into Israel.
Thing is that when you ask politically involved Palestinian about peace process he will tell you that two state solution is just a temporary step toward whole Palestine.
Creating Palestinian state just to win some sympathy of a Fin or Swed is the easy part question is if this will end the conflict.
Question is what will happen when Abu Mazen is gone and West bank will become terrorist habitat for continuation of struggle against Zionist.
Will UN back Israelis killing women and children when missiles from west bank fall on Tel Aviv?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by MH

Here we go again....
There wasn't Jewish state for 2000 years blah blah blah....Still there are Jewish people.
From my perspective there is no difference between 2000 years and 20 years
Jews had been hunted all over Europe including modern "civilised" history.
Return to land of Israel was always Jewish dream which seriously began with mostly secular Zionist movement.

Thank you for your answer and opinion.

Do palestinians deserve their own state?
Facts on the ground are as such that Jews and Palestinians need to compromise.
Question is what is the nature of compromise and if compromise will end the conflict.

I don't support one state solution, because I don't see any hope of peace with it. I support too state option as bad alternative which may or may not bring peace. What I would like to know from you is that how serious Israel really is about peace? Also how declaring Jerusalem as undividable capital of Israel helps negotiations?

Abu mazen talk about settlements because it sounds right for his cause.
At the same time PA official put out statement that Palestinian state must be Jews free while they argue about returning millions of Palestinian refugees into Israel.

As I said earlier, I'm not perfect. I don't know every thing and that was reason to my question in first place. Btw I didn't know about Jew free requirement although that is not really surprising and I strongly disagree with idea of Palestinian refugees returning to Israel if they get their own country.

Thing is that when you ask politically involved Palestinian about peace process he will tell you that two state solution is just a temporary step toward whole Palestine.

Link please? I had never hear this kind of claim.

Creating Palestinian state just to win some sympathy of a Fin or Swed is the easy part question is if this will end the conflict.
Question is what will happen when Abu Mazen is gone and West bank will become terrorist habitat for continuation of struggle against Zionist.

Valid concern and I don't have answer to that question.

Will UN back Israelis killing women and children when missiles from west bank fall on Tel Aviv?

Do you imply that deaths of women and children during your country's responses to terrorist attacks is intentional instead of accidental?!

August is at it again
Hey august why not take your own advice and stop trolling, once again you add nothing to the topic but just do your drive-by trolling again and again.

If i don't and most likely will not agree with you and...try to take your view apart then let it be....its not that your world will crumble around you will it?

Not in the slightest, but unfortunately the policies you support are pretty much guaranteed to ensure your world will.

Link please? I had never hear this kind of claim.

That is fairly common, though vital words are missing from what MH wrote, then again if the words were included then the statement he wrote would have no impact.

Do you imply that deaths of women and children during your country's responses to terrorist attacks is intentional instead of accidental?!

Did you notice that it made no sense?

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Link please? I had never hear this kind of claim.

this article is about a poll where Palestinians claim that: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...state-1.325793

note: the poll above is made by a pro-Israeli organization, especially in emotional biased topics like this, it is exteremely important to check out who makes a poll and - if possible - the exact questions, as little changes in the questions can make enormous differences; do you want Pepsi?, do you want Coke?, do you want Pepsi or Coke? do you want a Pepsi if you can't have a Coke?

Also take a look at these polls: most Palestinians want a two-state-solution (from AP)

and this from a pro-Palestinian organization: 70 percent of the Palestinians want a one-state-solution - together with 75% of Palestinians who deny Israel's right to exist

IF all those surveys are correct, one can come to the come to the conclusion, that a two-state-solution is seen as temporary, or more blunt: first the Pepsi, then the Coke

[MH]

Originally Posted by Penguin

this article is about a poll where Palestinians claim that: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...state-1.325793

note: the poll above is made by a pro-Israeli organization, especially in emotional biased topics like this, it is exteremely important to check out who makes a poll and - if possible - the exact questions, as little changes in the questions can make enormous differences; do you want Pepsi?, do you want Coke?, do you want Pepsi or Coke? do you want a Pepsi if you can't have a Coke?

Also take a look at these polls: most Palestinians want a two-state-solution (from AP)

and this from a pro-Palestinian organization: 70 percent of the Palestinians want a one-state-solution - together with 75% of Palestinians who deny Israel's right to exist

IF all those surveys are correct, one can come to the come to the conclusion, that a two-state-solution is seen as temporary, or more blunt: first the Pepsi, then the Coke

Thanks for the links because i had none.
My view was based on some observations and real life chit chats which may be problematic in Internet discussions.

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

I don't support one state solution, because I don't see any hope of peace with it. I support too state option as bad alternative which may or may not bring peace. What I would like to know from you is that how serious Israel really is about peace? Also how declaring Jerusalem as undividable capital of Israel helps negotiations?

Eastern Jerusalem had been offered to Palestinians when Ehud Barak was PM and by other previous governments.
When precondition to peace talks is stopping construction in Gilo neighborhood or Har'Homa and Male'Adumim there is nothing to talk about.
Those are whole Jewish parts of Jerusalem and its like demanding freeze of constructions in Tel-Aviv.
Totally nuts....again it looks great...Jews are building again.
I would like someone to point out to all the illegal settlements that are dismantled inside west bank by IDF and Police.

That's again -ground reality from my perspective.
Israelis did not ask for all the wars and its small price for arabs to pay for peace.
Historically they never had regard for human life...they start war then lose then UN votes as nothing happens-what do they have to lose?
1967 borders as precondition are out of question.

From my perspective(i'm quite leftist i guess) i don't mind giving Palestinian populated parts of Jerusalem to PA.
Question is if this will ensure peace and stability or simply cause every idiot with 50mm mortal to be able to shell city centre.
Oh...you would have to run a poll with Israeli Arabs there...do they really want to be part of PA?
You just might be surprised.

Do you imply that deaths of women and children during your country's responses to terrorist attacks is intentional instead of accidental?!

No.. but its unavoidable.
The tactics used by terrorists ensures this since it further damages view about Israel in public opinion around the world.
Operation "cast lead" and goldstone report is good recent example.
It took long time for goldstone to conclude that he might be wrong but the damage was done.
Israelis are baby killers anyway.
The absurd..Tzipi Livni who is in opposition from left to current government was charged with war crimes and could not enter UK.
If i remember just last month the charges had been dismissed.
Simply put it the UN and international law created atmosphere for terrorism to thrive.
its a win or nothing to lose situation for them...all they need is to manage it well.