So I'm planning a new mod...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Wolfstriked

Is it really true that a Uboat sinks when at zero speed.....I am asking about periscope depths mainly?

It is theoretically possible to maintain depth while stationary. The problem is that this requires using the pumps, which is just as noisy if not more so than running the propulsion motors at slow speed. If it's the periscope wake you're worried about, at 2 knots the wake should be minimal, and they're just as likely to spot the 'scope itself as the 'feather'.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by vodkaphile

SH3?

March 2005. Six years and counting.

[Wolfstriked]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It is theoretically possible to maintain depth while stationary. The problem is that this requires using the pumps, which is just as noisy if not more so than running the propulsion motors at slow speed. If it's the periscope wake you're worried about, at 2 knots the wake should be minimal, and they're just as likely to spot the 'scope itself as the 'feather'.

Thanks Sailor Steve,what do you mean by the pumps?If you mean to pump the water that flowed in to the sub out....thats another area I wonder about.I can see gaining cracks from diving too deep or even bullet holes and hence flooding but aren't subs water tight without any damage taken?

Also from what I gather there are two "safety" tanks on a WW2 German sub. http://jtmcdaniel.com/diving.html

It would seem that it would be super easy to add or remove air from the negative tank while stalking a convoy to maintain periscope depth.This would also explain why the compressed air tank is not very relevant in SH3.Would be kool to hear compressed air being blown every once in awhile while at periscope depth to simulate the negative tank being played with.

Right now we have blow ballast....would be kool to have a blow emergency button say if flooding becomes severe.

And Vodkaphile,you mention playing with the dive planes.This is excellent news as many times I am getting DC'ed and can't believe my helmsmen have set such a shallow dive angle.In SH4 there is option to maintain deep dive and would be excellent for SH3.

Also,is it possible to improve the sound aspect of submerged escape gameplay in SH3.What I mean is first and very important is the sound meter stays green when you ping for depth under keel.Second is when getting depth charged it stays red when I feel that as soon as the explosions start happening it should stay green and for a good while after.Would make waiting for DC to go off and giving flank speed/turning for a few seconds to allow new position and depth change.This could be a request for the Hsie and Stiebler crew though.....

[Wolfstriked]

And some more findings.Just now I went and placed the compressed air gauge in direct view via SHIFT F2.I then went to 25m depth and did blow ballast and normal surface the boat.It behaves erratically....

Blow ballast sometimes causes the CompressedA gauge to lower by 1 and 1/2 tick mark.Standard surface sometimes causes the CA gauge to lower by 1-1/2 tick marks also.Makes sense since they both blow the main tank out with air just at slower rates.Whats wrong is it sometimes lowers the gauge and sometimes doesn't.

And if you blow ballast once and then blow it again it lowers the CA gauge all the way below the blue safety margin.This I believe is probably how much the CA should lower when filling the main ballast tanks with air.In the same way the devs simplified so many parts of sub management for gameplay reasons(to not not scare away most customers...understandable) the CA usage seems right now like an afterthought in gameplay.

How about a button for a negative tank control.Right now my sub does not dive if I try to at slow engine speed setting.I use NYGM but have tweaked it so that it stays stable at periscope depth for 10 minutes at which point it starts to surface.But what would be kool is a button to tweak this slightly so that it sinks a bit faster when fill negative tank is pushed allowing the sub to dive a slight bit faster and then I can blow out the negative tank to keep the sub slightly bouyant.Its easily done by a tweak of the surfaced displacement percentage to the mass of sub.Doing it though requires brains in the coding department though.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Wolfstriked

Thanks Sailor Steve,what do you mean by the pumps?If you mean to pump the water that flowed in to the sub out....thats another area I wonder about.I can see gaining cracks from diving too deep or even bullet holes and hence flooding but aren't subs water tight without any damage taken?

All ships leak a little, and there's no such thing as a perfect watertight seal. Actually of course some manage to be perfect, but it's the same as the proverb "there's no such thing as an unloaded gun." Even with welded seams on the hull some might not be perfect, the hatches all have a chance of not seating perfectly, the rudder and propellor-shaft joins may not be perfect. Also even when the boat seems to be in perfect trim, true perfection is impossible. Sooner or later the boat will rise or sink, depending on the trim, and unless the boat is moving those adjustments must be made by shifting water fore or aft, or by pumping some out. It's a fact of life when you're a sailor.

Right now we have blow ballast....would be kool to have a blow emergency button say if flooding becomes severe.

'E' key. It's extra cool if you're using DBSM.

Also,is it possible to improve the sound aspect of submerged escape gameplay in SH3.What I mean is first and very important is the sound meter stays green when you ping for depth under keel.Second is when getting depth charged it stays red when I feel that as soon as the explosions start happening it should stay green and for a good while after.Would make waiting for DC to go off and giving flank speed/turning for a few seconds to allow new position and depth change.This could be a request for the Hsie and Stiebler crew though.....

The Noise Meter is an indicator of how much noise you're making, nothing else. Also, it's totally unrealistic and shouldn't be there anyway.

[Wolfstriked]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

All ships leak a little, and there's no such thing as a perfect watertight seal. Actually of course some manage to be perfect, but it's the same as the proverb "there's no such thing as an unloaded gun." Even with welded seams on the hull some might not be perfect, the hatches all have a chance of not seating perfectly, the rudder and propellor-shaft joins may not be perfect. Also even when the boat seems to be in perfect trim, true perfection is impossible. Sooner or later the boat will rise or sink, depending on the trim, and unless the boat is moving those adjustments must be made by shifting water fore or aft, or by pumping some out. It's a fact of life when you're a sailor.

I see now.Its as you say a fact of life being a sailor as most boats do have bilge pumps.I am still not sold on the subs will submerge or rise when at zero speeds though.There are so many tanks that can be tweaked to maintain any depth.Taken from

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/chap18.htm


"""A stationary dive is made when the ship is dead in the water. The main ballast tanks are completely flooded and enough water is flooded into the variable ballast tanks to destroy the remaining positive buoyancy. Flooding and pumping may be alternated to maintain the ship on an even keel at any desired depth. This type of dive is sometimes used during builder's trials to test and inspect the hull at various submerged depths down to final test depth."""

'E' key. It's extra cool if you're using DBSM.

I was thinking more if the flooding gets so severe and you blow ballast and still are sinking then you could have a few more of the actual safety tanks to use....instead of the dreaded ship sunk screen.Could give you enough time to get the flooding under control.


The Noise Meter is an indicator of how much noise you're making, nothing else. Also, it's totally unrealistic and shouldn't be there anyway.

Your most likely right.Do you know if NYGM models the sensors of enemy ships being useless during DC attacks?I think I read somewhere of a mod that does that.Also what do you think of the unrealistic compressed air modeling in SH3.If you look at the CA gauge it shows a blue graph that I think is how much one fill of the ballast tanks takes away from the CA reserve.I assumethis because the dial also has a redline towards the lower end that matches the blue area in size....most likely telling the crew that they have enough CA to surface one more time so they better have the negative tank blown before that line is reached.

Sh3 rules!

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by vodkaphile

I'd say my biggest achievement so far is the pump/venting system,,,,think aotd...

If you go silent running you will slowly always lose depth due to shutting off your pumps to be more silent.

The deeper you go the more you will slowly 'dive' due to these effects. Unless you speed up and/or change dive plane. Yes I've figured out how to adjust the planes, so instead of setting 15m depth, you can set fore plane 5dgrees and aft a different depending on rate of descent/ascent.

Very good, now I think I can see where you're going with this.

Your ideas seem to fit quite nicely with your original description of 'true realism' as opposed to typical 'gameplay realism' which generally relies on artificial (AI cheating or spamming type) means to increase difficulty.

Just between you and me I think there would be a real appetite for this type of mod as a lot of people would probably appreciate the enhanced controls for tasks that are currently taken for granted in a one button universe.

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date with your progress. If there's one thing I've learned here it's that this community is a rich storehouse of talent with many members who are willing to help formulate (and implement) new ideas toward greater clarity and eventual realization.

In other words, we're surrounded by good hands so I'd encourage you to stick with it and (if need be) ask for help along the way.

Best of luck and keep up the good work!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Wolfstriked

I see now.Its as you say a fact of life being a sailor as most boats do have bilge pumps.I am still not sold on the subs will submerge or rise when at zero speeds though.There are so many tanks that can be tweaked to maintain any depth.Taken from

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/chap18.htm

From your own link:

In all normal submerged operations, the submarine is underway at relatively slow speeds. This horizontal motion through the water enables the surfaces of the diving planes to correct the effect of any slight positive or neagtive buoyancy and also to increse or decrease the submirged depth at the order from the conning officer.

I was thinking more if the flooding gets so severe and you blow ballast and still are sinking then you could have a few more of the actual safety tanks to use....instead of the dreaded ship sunk screen.Could give you enough time to get the flooding under control.

Blowing ballast means blowing all ballast. In an emergency you don't have time to play games with "how much" and "when".

ps When you do that trick of replying in bold inside someone else's quote you make it impossible to quote you again. I had to physically retype each of your replies before I could answer them.

[Wolfstriked]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

From your own link:



Blowing ballast means blowing all ballast. In an emergency you don't have time to play games with "how much" and "when".

ps When you do that trick of replying in bold inside someone else's quote you make it impossible to quote you again. I had to physically retype each of your replies before I could answer them.

You win about a subs non-ability to hover as it seems people are hell bent on this not happening.Not a perfect hover but it can be done with no speed.Can we agree that the negative tanks were blown out after submerging to ensure positive buoyancy.I see alot of people saying that at low speeds the subs sink but thats not what I have been finding online.For safety reasons you want a positive buoyancy,just in case something happens to your compressed air supply.

Yes blowing ballast means all in SH3 since its a simple model of a subs ballast system.It just models one tank.I have to disagree with you that it means blow all tanks in real life.Why would you want to rocket to surface to meet your maker when you can slowly use all the tanks you have at the subs disposal so that doesn't happen giving you time to stop the flooding.

There should be a poll.....should ships sink or surface when at low speeds.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Wolfstriked

You win about a subs non-ability to hover as it seems people are hell bent on this not happening.Not a perfect hover but it can be done with no speed.

I'm not trying to win anything. It's just a question that has been discussed in these forums for years, and every now and then someone comes along and wants to do it all over.

Can we agree that the negative tanks were blown out after submerging to ensure positive buoyancy.I see alot of people saying that at low speeds the subs sink but thats not what I have been finding online.For safety reasons you want a positive buoyancy,just in case something happens to your compressed air supply.

That is true, to a point. If you lose power you are suddenly faced with the question of sinking until you get crushed or rising to the surface and getting blown to pieces (or captured if you manage to surrender before they kill you). As I said, even if you set for positive buoyancy, sooner or later the boat is going to take on water and the buoyance will change. All of this is controllable, but you're not going to remain silent if you have to change anything, and the whole point of shutting down the motors is to be silent. It's much easier to run at the minimum speed required to maintain depth without having to run the pumps, and any change in any of the tanks will definitely make noise.

Aces Of The Deep modelled this very nicely. Even at slow speed if you set Silent Running sooner or later the LI would inform you "Sir, cannot maintain depth unless we run the pumps."

Yes blowing ballast means all in SH3 since its a simple model of a subs ballast system.It just models one tank.I have to disagree with you that it means blow all tanks in real life.Why would you want to rocket to surface to meet your maker when you can slowly use all the tanks you have at the subs disposal so that doesn't happen giving you time to stop the flooding.

Blowing ballast is for emergencies. If you just want to change your depth the easiest, most effecient and quietest way is to keep forward momentum and use the dive planes.

There should be a poll.....should ships sink or surface when at low speeds.

There has been, long before you were around. NYGM created the "Anti-Hummingbird Mod", which made the sub slowly sink. GWX, for a time, had the sub rise, but instead of rising to the surface it would only rise two or three meters, which meant the player had to take that into account but not really worry about it.

I long ago advocated a random factor, in which the sub might start rising, might start sinking or might stay where it was, and you would never know. Unfortunately this doesn't seem possible within the game's structure.

[vodkaphile]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

March 2005. Six years and counting.

lol I'm retarded sorry. You are correct, I was extremely tired and not thinking clearly.

[Wolfstriked]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I'm not trying to win anything. It's just a question that has been discussed in these forums for years, and every now and then someone comes along and wants to do it all over.


That is true, to a point. If you lose power you are suddenly faced with the question of sinking until you get crushed or rising to the surface and getting blown to pieces (or captured if you manage to surrender before they kill you). As I said, even if you set for positive buoyancy, sooner or later the boat is going to take on water and the buoyance will change. All of this is controllable, but you're not going to remain silent if you have to change anything, and the whole point of shutting down the motors is to be silent. It's much easier to run at the minimum speed required to maintain depth without having to run the pumps, and any change in any of the tanks will definitely make noise.

Aces Of The Deep modelled this very nicely. Even at slow speed if you set Silent Running sooner or later the LI would inform you "Sir, cannot maintain depth unless we run the pumps."


Blowing ballast is for emergencies. If you just want to change your depth the easiest, most effecient and quietest way is to keep forward momentum and use the dive planes.


There has been, long before you were around. NYGM created the "Anti-Hummingbird Mod", which made the sub slowly sink. GWX, for a time, had the sub rise, but instead of rising to the surface it would only rise two or three meters, which meant the player had to take that into account but not really worry about it.

I long ago advocated a random factor, in which the sub might start rising, might start sinking or might stay where it was, and you would never know. Unfortunately this doesn't seem possible within the game's structure.

It will never be settled then.Its probably not possible but having the compressed air move down 1/3 when surfacing would start some realism.Now if we could have a button toggle that will blow and fill the negative tank we can play around with steeper dives for DC evasion and it will also eat away at the CA thats leftover.Maybe even just realistic amount of CA used for surfacing andwhen silent running avery slow reduction of CA to simulate the DO trying to maintain depth.Last night I surfaced right next to a destroyer and freaked and ordered crash dive and felt that if we had realistic CA usage I would be in a bind.

Of course its only a dream.

[Hitman]

It will never be settled then.

Actually it is settled, more or less. I mean, those of us who have been here with these discussions since SH2 have along the years got a clear picture of how it all worked. It's just that there is sadly no perfect and easy way to implement that into the game, as you seem to be limited to one effect (negative or positive) whereas in real life this changed depending on the actions of the chief engineer over trim, and other non-controllable factors like flooding, thermal layers (A sub can actually rest hovering in one of them with no noise or movement), water salinity and temperature, depth charges, etc.

Another nice feature that sadly we have been unable to recreate is the depth charges unbalancing the sub and sending it into an uncontrolled dive or rise. Effectively, a sub hovering is in balance in the water, and as anyone who has been near a small ship knows, you can actually move it with a push of your hand, even it weigths a few tons. So imagine what a depth charge exploding and displacing tons of water over/under her keel can do ... there were instances recorded of subs whose tail or nose was hovered above the surface in 45º angle by a depth charge, and the sudden move of all things inside plus the extreme angle, can easily send it in uncontrolled dive.

Hopefully H.Sie finds a way to recreate that

[Wolfstriked]

Just found a kool gameplay feature.This is with NYGM and its sinking unless at least ahead standard is used.Kinda too harsh IMO but I think thats because I have put my engine settings to realistic values and so ahead slow gives only one to two knots in calm seas.


Ok,say you are stalking a convoy,keep and eye out on your depth and every time it sinks a full meter blow ballast and instantly press maintain depth.It will blow some air into the main ballast amd youll rise about a meter.Now with realistic CA usage and stalking a convoy will be more realistic and fun

I wonder if its possible to go into the commands.cfg and enter in one button press and it will do two things like first hit blow ballast and instantly hit maintain depth???

[Wolfstriked]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Actually it is settled, more or less. I mean, those of us who have been here with these discussions since SH2 have along the years got a clear picture of how it all worked. It's just that there is sadly no perfect and easy way to implement that into the game, as you seem to be limited to one effect (negative or positive) whereas in real life this changed depending on the actions of the chief engineer over trim, and other non-controllable factors like flooding, thermal layers (A sub can actually rest hovering in one of them with no noise or movement), water salinity and temperature, depth charges, etc.

Another nice feature that sadly we have been unable to recreate is the depth charges unbalancing the sub and sending it into an uncontrolled dive or rise. Effectively, a sub hovering is in balance in the water, and as anyone who has been near a small ship knows, you can actually move it with a push of your hand, even it weigths a few tons. So imagine what a depth charge exploding and displacing tons of water over/under her keel can do ... there were instances recorded of subs whose tail or nose was hovered above the surface in 45º angle by a depth charge, and the sudden move of all things inside plus the extreme angle, can easily send it in uncontrolled dive.

Hopefully H.Sie finds a way to recreate that

I will pray Yeah its crazy and I read that smaller subs could handle DC attacks that larger subs couldn't since they would be blown away while the larger ships mass prevented that and so the ship took more damage.