Problem of Omniscient Destroyers in TMO

[Overkill]

This should help you out with the destroyers that see all...

Go into the SHIV directory under Data/Cfg and open the Sim file using Note Pad. Make sure that you open the Properties for the Sim file and set the permissions to allow for all users so the changes you make to the file will save.

Once there you'll change Hydrophone and Sonar settings to look like this:

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.15 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;1.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=12 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0 ;0.35 ;0.25 ;[>=0]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=15 ;[s]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=5.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 5 equals signal reduction to 20%

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Overkill

This should help you out with the destroyers that see all...

BOOOOOOOOOOO!

Yeah, make the ultimate game of warfare into playing Frisbee with yourself. You can play submarines, but you aren't allowed to have any explosives in the torpedoes, the opposition will use leaky rubber rafts with no weapons of any kind. And one more thing. Water isn't allowed. Somebody might drown.

This ain't supposed to be a girlie game! Bring on the real Japanese Navy! It's war and we're up to the challenge. Or perhaps not. Why not just decide the conflict over a nice game of cooperative Frisbee.

[Ducimus]

The subject of the AI in TMO (in general) is one of those things that has gone off and assumed a life of its own. No matter what i do with it, somebody will be upset with me. However, my spidey sense tells me, most people are fine with it, and would be disappointed if it was anything else instead of what it currently is. So at this point, I don't dare touch it anymore then I already have.

Besides, as cited in the PDF that hardly anyone reads, TMO defines realism by player behavior. Is the player having the same worries and fears as a real sub captain would? One thing to remember is these sims are environment's that are repetitious and hard fixed to work within measured parameters. Once you know what those boundries are, the game will become dull.

Evading the AI is like threading a needle. How hard it is depends on how small the eye of the needle is. All the AI settings in TMO do, is make the eye of the needle smaller, so it is much harder to thread. With practice, even this added challenge will become dull and mundane.

EDIT:
And for the record, when I tuned the AI, i specifically tuned it to not be what i refer to as "Atlantic Hard". In some ways i almost wish i was modding for the ATO, as i could have had free license to go full tilt instead of holding back.

[Armistead]

I think your goal of TMO should be to put tonnage scores in line with the real war. Course, I run RSRD, which changes things.

I did change the crew ratings over RSRD as you told me and it helped a lot. The difference between rating 2's and 4's makes a huge difference. The added gun range also helped a lot.

It appears your version of MAD works over RSRD. Late war planes dump charges, but seems you let one charge much deeper. I've had my ship destroyed at 200 ft. Before, I might get mild damage at 150 ft.

I did add several sub hunter elite groups, helps some.

The problem is as you stated, once you learn the AI, you can find ways to beat it and things can get dull. The changes of TMO 2.1 were good changes.

Wish lurker was around to update RSRD, but slowly I'm figuring out how to do it correctly.

[Overkill]

There's no "right" or "wrong" here.
If you find the AI too hard you can make these minor adjustments. If you like it were it is then ya just leave it be. Everybody's happy (yeah, like that's ever going to happen in the history of mankind ).

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by Overkill

There's no "right" or "wrong" here.

WOW. Thanks for letting us know. None of knew that. We will all sleep better tonight.

Personally, I like 'em harder than hell. It force me to think, plus I get to kick the dog if they get me. And who cannot but love spending an hour having your crew repair damage only to be reamed when the crafty (no pun intended) SOBs take you out just when your boat is ready to refloat.

[Hylander_1314]

If the AI are too tough, get better at your tactics. The AI in TMO 2.1 is great! Very challenging. I have to time things just right, so that if I'm detected, I can hide under convoy or task force ships. Wait for the right moment, have the fish ready to fire when at PD, open the tubes as soon as we are shallow enough, duck out from under the vessel I'm using as a screen, fire the bow and stern tubes as quickly as possible, duck back under the ship(s), and take her deep. Very deep. I run my Balao at 600+ feet deep. More speed is needed to keep the boat trim, but I can usually avoid the DCs the DDs and DEs drop.

Once had my boat down over 700 ft, and the boat sounded like it was going to crush any minute.

[rein1705]

The chances of being killed and the worry, the waiting caused by this and the shear joy of actualy sneeking by them and scoreing makes TMO's AI worth its salt to me.

[TorpX]

The subject of the AI in TMO (in general) is one of those things that has gone off and assumed a life of its own. No matter what i do with it, somebody will be upset with me.

So true.

I've noticed the posts roughly fall into two catagories:


Ducimus:

The Japanese escorts are much too weak and wimpy, and I can easily penetrate their pathetic screens and sink their aircraft carriers 99.9% of the time. After I have sunk everything else, I pick off 2 battleships from 8,999 yards, with 1 torpedo, just because I can. You should make all IJN units "Elite", and add at least 500 well equipt hunter-killer groups (using the most advanced radar and sonar sets), with double loads of depth charges, so that they might offer me a slight challange. Otherwise, I will sink the entire Imperial Japanese Navy in six weeks and there will be nothing left for anyone else to shoot at.

- Capt. I. Sinkalot

------------------------- or ----------------------------

Ducimus:

i think your TMO is waaaaaaaaay too hard. Whenever i play the TMO stuff i get hammered big time. All day long the red planes fly around looking for me, and gee whiz, if one sees me, he tells all the others! its really unfair. Even when i'm lucky enough to get near the big ships, all the little ones get mad and start dropping all sorts of loud and scary, explodey things on me. i am beginning to think, they can like hear me or something. Pleeeease make them stop! Admiral Ubisort says i'll be relieved if i don't sink something soon.

- Commander (junior grade) Swab D. Dex

I have full confidence Ducimus will sort it all out. After all thats why he get paid the big bucks.

[I'm goin' down]

Okay, enought with the bulls**t. The fact of the matter is that Ducimus is out to **** us. If you think the dds are too hard, you're screwed. Likewise, if you think they are too easy.

You see, the Duc (as in the "Duck" of Death [refering to Little Bill in the Unforgiven]) is the pure, consumate evil computer genius, and this is his playground. He constructs this fantastic mod, and makes it all perfect just like the witch's house in Hansel and Gretel. We, being idiots, gobble it up of course, only to find out too late that he has prepared a wonderful Sunday dinner. What we are now realizing is that he planned the meal far, far in advance and that our asses are the main course. And who delivers that delightful message? dds designed, modded and released by none other than the Duc of Death.*

Kindly address replies to the "Delusional Patients" ward at the Happy Dale Sanatarium (where for obvious reasons TMO is banned by Nurse Ratchet who has been promoted to the position of Patients' Rights Advocate.)

*Message written at 4:07 a.m. on 4/8/2011 while the SS Barbarinna lies wounded on the ocean seabed, with its crew fighting for their lives and fighting what will likely be another losing batte to save their boat, after enduring an ongoing 4 hour hammering by dds designed, released and commisioned for sea duty by none other than the one and only Duc of Death himself.

[Sandman_28054]

I'm not using RSRD, but I am using TMO 2.

As it is stated, some like it easy, and some like it hard.

I don't like to tweek the settings because it makes me try to develop tactics to defeat them.

I always save with first contact with a convoy or Task Force.

This way, if I set up for an attack and I'm discovered, if they depth charge me to oblivion, I can load the save and try again.

I started a new career three days ago, Lt. Commander Sam Gamewell. I was ordered to patrol within 108 miles of Convoy College for 4 days.

Well I know where the attack on Manila is going to tke place and from what direction.

I placed myself right in front of the lead destroyer.

Sure enough, I was picked up and three DD's came straight for me.

I found out that when they are within 1500-1000 yards of me, I can "crash dive" and turn either 20 degrees to port or starboard until the DD's pass, get back on course and order "Periscope Depth" and come up usually with one or two of the DD's directly behind me. If I time it just right, I can sink them leaving just one more between me and the convoy.

Then its just a matter or picking them apart.

This don't always work, but sometimes it does.

[Overkill]

No good deed...

[Rockin Robbins]

Oh, no!!!! Overkill has Compulsive Tweaking Disorder (CTD). I know one other person who has this and it leads to terminal insanity! CTD kills!

By the way, in Ducimus' FAQ that nobody reads he clearly says that you are to tweak to your liking, just don't complain to him if you don't like the results. Many times in the FAQ he even tells you how to change his settings.

Still, the spirit of TMO is savagery. If you kill the spirit then what reason is there to run TMO at all? Might as well load up Beery's last version of RFB where you could sit at periscope depth shooting torpedoes, take multiple hits from depth charges and never get sunk.

Basically, what the difference is is that RFB strives for realism of result, not matter how unrealistic that makes player behavior and TMO seeks realistic player behavior, not matter how unrealistic that makes the rest of the game. I don't see how it's possible to achieve both.

But the fact is that one of five submariners were killed in the war. That's a sobering statistic the made the participants very afraid. In order to have a realistic simulation you must introduce the very real possibility that you might not survive "routine" operations.

[Wilcke]

Look at it this way, it was and is very difficult to capture what Ducimus noted the "unknown factors' and " the fog of war" in this sim. We have all read the books, seen the videos and know everything there is to know about the IJN, the bad torpedoes, we get to ignore Admiral Lockwood's orders and admonishments. So TMO makes up for all that by adding back that 'fear', so you are literally on the razors edge every time you decide to make an attack.

Its good stuff!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TorpX

So true.

I've noticed the posts roughly fall into two catagories:


Ducimus:

The Japanese escorts are much too weak and wimpy, and I can easily penetrate their pathetic screens and sink their aircraft carriers 99.9% of the time. After I have sunk everything else, I pick off 2 battleships from 8,999 yards, with 1 torpedo, just because I can. You should make all IJN units "Elite", and add at least 500 well equipt hunter-killer groups (using the most advanced radar and sonar sets), with double loads of depth charges, so that they might offer me a slight challange. Otherwise, I will sink the entire Imperial Japanese Navy in six weeks and there will be nothing left for anyone else to shoot at.

- Capt. I. Sinkalot

------------------------- or ----------------------------

Ducimus:

i think your TMO is waaaaaaaaay too hard. Whenever i play the TMO stuff i get hammered big time. All day long the red planes fly around looking for me, and gee whiz, if one sees me, he tells all the others! its really unfair. Even when i'm lucky enough to get near the big ships, all the little ones get mad and start dropping all sorts of loud and scary, explodey things on me. i am beginning to think, they can like hear me or something. Pleeeease make them stop! Admiral Ubisort says i'll be relieved if i don't sink something soon.

- Commander (junior grade) Swab D. Dex

So , so , so true! That's priceless!