Union Law in Wisconsin Blocked by Judge

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Really? Your faith in a judge that IGNORED state law and refused to order school teachers back to work from an illegal strike is stunning.

and why is it illegal exactly? or is it just because you say so?

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

and why is it illegal exactly? or is it just because you say so?

Don't know about Wisconsin but here in Washington State strikes by public employees are prohibited by statute. A legal nicety the Teacher's Union consistently ignores every year.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

and why is it illegal exactly? or is it just because you say so?

Dude, REALLY?

The LAW is what makes it illegal for public sector employees in Wisconsin to strike. This isn't exactly classified information.

You're reminding me of a kid who's being told something he doesn't want to hear and just plugs his ears, screaming "BLAH BLAH BLAH". Are there any facts that you wish to contribute or are you more inclined to just assume everyone opposing your ideology just must be wrong?

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Dude, REALLY?

The LAW is what makes it illegal for public sector employees in Wisconsin to strike. This isn't exactly classified information.

You're reminding me of a kid who's being told something he doesn't want to hear and just plugs his ears, screaming "BLAH BLAH BLAH". Are there any facts that you wish to contribute or are you more inclined to just assume everyone opposing your ideology just must be wrong?

well not that i won't believe you but i wanna see the law that says that first...I did a search and couldn't find anything.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

and why is it illegal exactly? or is it just because you say so?

Just because he says so.

The only thing illegal here was the passage of the bill.

Originally Posted by Aramike

I just noticed this:Are you kidding?

What makes you think that a conservative Supreme Court is going to overturn a law when the senate rules are explicit, AND they have written that legislature procedure is determined by the body?

Under the Wisconsin Open Meetings Law, which I believe is the one you're trying to drum up here and use for your own argument (at least, it's the one that Judge Sumi used in her restraining order's provisions), all meetings conducted by "governmental bodies" are required to have 24 hours notice given in advance (according to Statute 19.84). In this case, only a two hour notice was given, well below the requirement. Government bodies are, for the record, defined under the OML as:

The definition of “governmental body” includes a “state or local agency, board, commission, committee,
council, department or public body corporate and politic created by constitution, statute, ordinance, rule or
order[.]” Wis. Stat. § 19.82(1). This definition is broad enough to include virtually any collective governmental
entity, regardless of what it is labeled. It is important to note that a governmental body is defined primarily in
terms of the manner in which it is created, rather than in terms of the type of authority it possesses. Purely
advisory bodies are therefore subject to the law, even though they do not possess final decision making power, as
long as they are created by constitution, statute, ordinance, rule, or order.

More precisely, the OML applies to the state's legislature, including the senate, assembly, and any committees or subunits of those precise bodies (according to Statute 19.87) anytime and every time they have a meeting (according to Statute 19.83). There are no exemptions to be had with this case, the only ones currently in existence being applicable to deliberations with regards to judicial or quasi-judicial trials or hearings before the respective body, the purchasing of public properties, investing of public funds, unemployment compensation and worker's compensation (both cases of which require all employer members or employees to be excluded for this to apply), and the location of burial sites; additionally, exemptions exist for considerations with regards to dismissals, demotions, licensing, and discipline of public employees or person holding authority/power within a public board, commission, investigation committee, etc.; employment, promotion, compensation, or performance evaluation data holds jurisdiction and/or responsibility; probation, parole, crime detection and prevention sessions; all other cases where financial, medical, social, personal histories, disciplinary data, preliminary consideration, confidentiality, ethics, conferences with legal consultants, etc. are factors with regards to protecting the integrity and ensuring the unmolested reputation of any and all persons/businesses discussed within such data (all this is under Statute 19.85).

Oh, and considerations are also made to financial information relating to the support by a person, other than an authority figure, of a nonprofit corporation operating the Olympic Ice Training Center in your own native Milwaukee... in case you wanted to know that little detail, as well...

The point being that they clearly violated the OML's notice provision and do not qualify under any of the exemptions listed under the very same law. Judge Sumi was right to call them out on this, and that's how simple it is. Any negativity otherwise stems merely from wishful thinking and a personal desire to curb the unions of Wisconsin. The language of the OML is clear, as you can see for yourself here:

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dls/OMPR/...ance_Guide.pdf
http://www.wisfoic.org/an-openmeetingslaw.html

Originally Posted by Aramike

Dude, REALLY?

The LAW is what makes it illegal for public sector employees in Wisconsin to strike. This isn't exactly classified information.

Actually, it's not illegal. You cannot be sent to jail or prison or arrested for striking in Wisconsin if you are a public worker. It's not a crime. You can only be discharged from your duties.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-...11_AB%2011.pdf

p.16, i.3

Originally Posted by gimpy117

well not that i won't believe you but i wanna see the law that says that first...I did a search and couldn't find anything.

You won't find anything, because it isn't illegal lol.

Though I find it surprising that so many people here who coo and bellow on about freedom and rights and how both are being trampled on (when something as simple as the issue of gun rights comes into the picture) have had, evidently, a sudden change of heart here...

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

well not that i won't believe you but i wanna see the law that says that first...I did a search and couldn't find anything.

Wisconsin State Statute 111.70.

And seriously - during the "sick out" every major media outlet pointed that out, because they were explaining as to why the teachers tried the "sick out" technique rather than a strike.

I'm shocked you missed it, unless you weren't interested in such facts...

[Aramike]

Actually, it's not illegal. You cannot be sent to jail or prison or arrested for striking in Wisconsin if you are a public worker. It's not a crime. You can only be discharged from your duties.

Yes it IS illegal.

There are plenty of things that are illegal but not criminal, and this is one of them. That's Lawyer 101. Perhaps you should brush up on the basics.

(Odd you didn't know that considering that practically the entire illegal immigrant debate's legal basis is the fact that an illegal immigrant, by being here, is not committing a crime.)

Furthermore, you're cherry picking the open meetings law. I'll just be patient and let the upcoming rulings explain specifically why you're wrong, as you're clearly choosing to ignore other points on the books ... which I've already presented.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Yes it IS illegal.

There are plenty of things that are illegal but not criminal, and this is one of them. That's Lawyer 101. Perhaps you should brush up on the basics.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-...11_AB%2011.pdf

No, it is not. You can only be discharged from your duties if you are a public worker and go on a strike (that is, fail to report to work for three days straight and/or show a clear dereliction in your job's tasks which have been presented to you). It is not a crime, and you cannot be sent to jail or prison or even be arrested for it... you do know what a crime is, don't you? I guess not.

To use an excerpt from your earlier post:

You're reminding me of a kid who's being told something he doesn't want to hear and just plugs his ears, screaming "BLAH BLAH BLAH". Are there any facts that you wish to contribute or are you more inclined to just assume everyone opposing your ideology just must be wrong?

Originally Posted by Aramike

Furthermore, you're cherry picking the open meetings law.

Do tell how. I merely explained how Judge Sumi was correct in citing this portion of the OML and was also correct in her verdict that the state senate had violated it by not providing adequate notice as they are required to... and that, furthermore, it does not qualify for an exemption. Nothing more or less.

Originally Posted by Aramike

I'll just be patient and let the upcoming rulings explain specifically why you're wrong, as you're clearly choosing to ignore other points on the books ... which I've already presented.

By that, you mean you'll just ignore my points and the legitimate legal aspects of this case and continue to spout that atrocious rhetoric you call "points". You have posted 8 times in this thread, yet have presented no legal argument for your side and a counterargument against Judge Sumi, whereas I have taken the time and put forth the effort to do so for you in order to explain the legal background behind this case and how there are indeed issues to be had with how this bill was passed, both of which with regards to the OML (proving why it was, moreoever, illegal in the first place with regards to the notice).

By all means, do so. I'll more than gladly oblige you in the coming weeks.

[Aramike]

Here's another one for you, Stealth Hunter. WI Senate Rule 93, which applies to the SPECIAL SESSION:

Senate Rule 93. Special, extended or extraordinary sessions. Unless otherwise provided by the senate for a specific special, extended or extraordinary session, the rules of the senate adopted for the regular session shall, with the following modifications, apply to each special session called by the governor and to each extended or extraordinary session called by the senate and assembly organization committees or called by a joint resolution approved by both houses:
(1) No senate bill, senate joint resolution or senate resolution shall be considered unless it is germane to the subjects enumerated by the governor in the proclamation calling the special session or to the subjects enumerated by the committees on organization or in the joint resolution calling the extended or extraordinary session and is recommended for introduction by the committee on senate organization or by the joint committee on employment relations.
(2) No notice of hearing before a committee shall be required other than posting on the legislative bulletin board, and no bulletin of committee hearings shall be published.
(3) The daily calendar shall be in effect immediately upon posting on the legislative bulletin boards. The calendar need not be distributed.
(4) Any point of order shall be decided within one hour.
(5) No motion shall be entertained to postpone action to a day or time certain. (6) Any motion to advance a proposal and any motion to message a proposal to the other house may be adopted by a majority of those present and voting.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-...11_AB%2011.pdf

No, it is not. You can only be discharged from your duties if you are a public worker and go on a strike (that is, fail to report to work for three days straight and/or show a clear dereliction in your job's tasks which have been presented to you). It is not a crime, and you cannot be sent to jail or prison or even be arrested for it... you do know what a crime is, don't you? I guess not.

To use an excerpt from your earlier post:

You're reminding me of a kid who's being told something he doesn't want to hear and just plugs his ears, screaming "BLAH BLAH BLAH". Are there any facts that you wish to contribute or are you more inclined to just assume everyone opposing your ideology just must be wrong?

No, YOU don't know what a crime is. You should consult an attorney.

All things that are illegal are not crimes.

For instance, parking illegally in a handicapped zone is NOT a crime. Dude, this is basic stuff. It IS illegal, it IS punishable, but it is NOT a criminal violation.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Here's another one for you, Stealth Hunter. WI Senate Rule 93, which applies to the SPECIAL SESSION:

As I previously stated, this qualifies as a regular legislative session, not as a special session, with regards to the OML and state senate. By all means, explain, using the legal aspects you claim are on your side, how, exactly, the passage of the union bill in question by the state senate qualified and indeed continues to qualify as a special session.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

As I previously stated, this qualifies as a regular legislative session, not as a special session, with regards to the OML and state senate. By all means, explain, using the legal aspects you claim are on your side, how, exactly, the passage of the union bill in question by the state senate qualified and indeed continues to qualify as a special session.

Abolsutely, 100% wrong.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/spotlight/

The special session was called by Gov. Walker and is ongoing. Again, this is not classified information.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Aramike

No, YOU don't know what a crime is. You should consult an attorney.

Such comments from ignorance are most pitiful. Let me put it to you in this fashion: how does striking in Wisconsin constitute a crime, as you claim? What are the civil punishments or charges, etc. that can be filed against a person?

Originally Posted by Aramike

All things that are illegal are not crimes.

If something is illegal in this sense, then it is prohibited by law. If you violate the law by doing something illegal, you are committing a crime (an act which is punishable for breaking the law).

I need to consult an attorney? YOU need to consult an attorney.

Originally Posted by Aramike

For instance, parking illegally in a handicapped zone is NOT a crime.

Actually, it constitutes a civil citation. You still are probably going to be fined and might have to appear in front of a court to pay that fine. It's not any different with speeding tickets. You won't have a criminal record, so long as you aren't a repeat offender, but you still will be punished, ergo it constitutes a crime.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Dude, this is basic stuff. It IS illegal, it IS punishable, but it is NOT a criminal violation.

For the third time, it is not illegal. You are not fined, you are not held in jail, you are not required to appear in front of a court... you are simply discharged from your duties as a public employee. The employee is given notice about the action and reasons are listed.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-...11_AB%2011.pdf

Originally Posted by Aramike

Abolsutely, 100% wrong.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/spotlight/

The special session was called by Gov. Walker and is ongoing. Again, this is not classified information.

(2) No notice of hearing before a committee shall be required other than posting on the legislative bulletin board . . .

Committees and only committees not required to do so under special sessions. The problem for you, however, is that, as I pointed out earlier and perhaps should have been more specific on just a short while ago, the state senate does not act as a committee; it is its own collective governmental entity with common legislative powers- created and specified from the state constitution.

The definition of “governmental body” includes a “state or local agency, board, commission, committee,
council, department or public body corporate and politic created by constitution, statute, ordinance, rule or
order[.]” Wis. Stat. § 19.82(1). This definition is broad enough to include virtually any collective governmental
entity, regardless of what it is labeled. It is important to note that a governmental body is defined primarily in
terms of the manner in which it is created, rather than in terms of the type of authority it possesses. Purely
advisory bodies are therefore subject to the law, even though they do not possess final decision making power, as
long as they are created by constitution, statute, ordinance, rule, or order.

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dls/OMPR/...ance_Guide.pdf

It would be different if it was a committee, but it's not.

[Aramike]

By that, you mean you'll just ignore my points and the legitimate legal aspects of this case and continue to spout that atrocious rhetoric you call "points". You have posted 8 times in this thread, yet have presented no legal argument for your side and a counterargument against Judge Sumi, whereas I have taken the time and put forth the effort to do so for you in order to explain the legal background behind this case and how there are indeed issues to be had with how this bill was passed, both of which with regards to the OML (proving why it was, moreoever, illegal in the first place with regards to the notice).[/quote]I missed this before. Let me explain clearly why I'm not going to get into a all-out legal tit-for-tat with you.

The main reason is I don't think you really have a grasp on legalese to begin with. You're making these brash claims that all things illegal are crimes. They are not. Speeding, for instance, is not a crime.

In fact, in Wisconsin, 1st Offense Drunk Driving is not a crime (this has been a contentious, ongoing debate).

Another supporting reason is you clearly haven't bothered to get your facts straight. With the 2011 legislative session, both houses voted unanimously to adjourn the regular session and enter into a special one, early.

These are two basic concepts, both of which you've side-stepped through clear ignorance in order to invalidate my points. However, the fact remains that these two concepts are REAL ones, therefore side-stepping them only invalidates that which follows.

Here's a link to an excellent article explaining the latter portion clearly: http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/03/...omises-appeal/

[Aramike]

Such comments from ignorance are most pitiful. Let me put it to you in this fashion: how does striking in Wisconsin constitute a crime, as you claim? What are the civil punishments or charges, etc. that can be filed against a person?

I said it was illegal, not that it was a crime.

Again, you STILL don't know the difference? Kind of pitiful at this juncture.

If something is illegal in this sense, then it is prohibited by law. If you violate the law by doing something illegal, you are committing a crime (an act which is punishable for breaking the law).

I need to consult an attorney? YOU need to consult an attorney.

Keep pushing that point. It's getting more funny by the moment, because even a first year law student knows the difference between illegal and criminal.

I do DO know what you're trying to say - but unfortunately if you're going to discuss things in legal terms you can't just disappear into common dictionary usage whenever it serves your purpose.

Committees and only committees not required to do so under special sessions. The problem for you, however, is that, as I pointed out earlier and perhaps should have been more specific on just a short while ago, the state senate does not act as a committee; it is its own collective governmental entity with common legislative powers- created and specified from the state constitution.

You do know that the conference committee meeting is what's being challenged here, right?

The following day's floor session was already scheduled - for two months.

Now you're getting laughable.