Germans wrestle with multicultural identity

Nice twisting of my words mister. You know perfectly well what I mean.

I know perfectly well what you mean, and I know that it doesn't really make any sense.

That's the easiest way of discussing, isn't it? Just state your opponent's claims are false and not provide any evidence for it.

Those two claims were so ludicrous it is self evident that they were complete nonsense.

"Dutch" tradition? Tradition of one or two places in the bible belt yeah.

A Dutch tradition that still existss in a few Dutch places.
So that would be a Dutch tradition as it is a Dutch tradition and its Dutch because its in the Netherlands and the people whose tradition it is are errrrr.....Dutch.

Whaddyamean throw our culture away? I just explained to you it isn't part of Dutch culture at all.

No you didn't, you demonstrated yourself having a mental block again.

Statistics are hard to find, all I could find was this wikipedia page which mentions that 46.9% of all Turkish women wears a headscarf (you're welcome to search for other statistics). Very close to the 50% I mentioned, isn't it? So far for my "warped perception"....

Interesting link, did you notice the bit in there about Dutch culture.
As for your statisitics, they are meaningless, you made a claim about Turkish and Arabic women you see, so a statistic about all turkish women means nothing.
Besides which you need to explore the warped perception angle as the simple fact is you notice headscarfs more rather than see them more.

So far I haven't seen *you* produce any evidence for your claims.

So far I havn't had to as you dig yourself into a hole.

Jeez, of course there are criminal Germans as well. I never denied that. Which is why it is a perfect example for nothing.

Sorry but you did, which is why it was a perfect example.
You made lots of claims about Turks doing things, added the qualification that of course not all Turks do those things but made the very foolish claim that Germans don't do those things

I remember you claimed to be some expert on Dutch law?

Why do you have to lie? I said you appeared to know bugger all about the dutch laws at issue and you proved me correct by not even being able to understand the law or even identify the correct branch of laws even thogh your fathers summons and specific charge was on the link.

If so you can surely agree with me that there is a certain principle called "innocent until proven guilty".

Excuse me, you claimed a verdict of guilty was really a not guilty verdict.

So until a suspect is convicted it isn't anything more than a suspect, no matter how guilty he is. Because not everyone in these statistics was convicted yet they couldn't call them anything else.

Well done.
Now see if you can understand how those figures are reached?
After all a reported suspect only means one thing

No matter how you look at these statistics, they're different from what you'd expect.

Not at all, if anything I would have expected them to be higher, as I said above, they only mean one thing.

I'm not talking about German politics, I'm talking about what I have seen in my life.

Sorry, your claim was that Germans don't do that sort of thing.
See what I mean about digging yourself into a hole.

Yes, my witnessing the Dutch customs everyday makes me totally more ignorant of the specifics than you

It certainly did, all you had to do was look and think but you simply wouldn't as to do so would have demolished your own claims.

Oh dear, your claim is suddenly not valid anymore so you just start spewing random crap about me jumping back

Do you even realise what you had written and what it related to that you had previously written?

[Gammelpreusse]

Stances in this thread reminds me of "all Germans are Nazis" blames.

I had two basic experiences with Turks.

One in school, where I got bullied regularly on my way home through a Turkish quarter. Kinda left a bad impression

Second at work, where the two Turks we had were as cool and geeky as the rest of us. Cool guys, highly creative and more work ethics then most Germans in their 30ies growing up in liberal lala land 80ies. Left some highly positive impressions. Unluckily the latter two by now moved out of the country for various reasons. Constant bad tasted jokes and comparisons to the first group mentioned here amongst them. It went as far that those two guys adopted the stereotypes, so much ppl expected them to be this way anyways. Nothing radical, just a constant reminder that they were different, even if they were not.

What does this tell us, and what conclusions can be drawn here?

P.S. Remarks that some political parties want to get rid of Germany are a bad joke and show more ideological confrontation then objectivity. Even "die Linke" is comfortable with Germany these days. Would be better if they actually weren't just to get a bit more variety into politics instead of this huge big conformist mud.

P.P.S. I can trace my family roots back to the 15th century, when my folks came into Germany from the Austrian parts of the Holy Roman Empire. It's getting blurry before that. Throw in some Habsburg bastard blood and it is as German as you can get. Can't offer blue eyes nor blonde hair, though. Can't exactly say I can appreciate historic late comer Prussia defining what Germans have to look and behave like. On top of it, I seriously can't stand a couple typically german traits. It's the 21th century, for gods sake, and just because there is some economic crisis and the typical radicalization coming with such times there is no reason to throw understanding and common sense out of the window for the sake of simple/convenient conclusions.

What does this tell us, and what conclusions can be drawn here?

The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.

just because there is some economic crisis and the typical radicalization coming with such times there is no reason to throw understanding and common sense out of the window for the sake of simple/convenient conclusions

Well said.
Common sense does tend to go out the window very easily.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.

A bit overblown. It's way more subtle, in reality.

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values. That arguments gets blown out of the water by recognizing that the second generation of turkish immigrants actually did their best to integrate, and only parts of the latter generations went back to radicalization. Something must have happened there and I have a problem of blaming this development only on immigrants children. Integration always is a two way street, those that need to make the effort to integrate (Do not get me wrong, that requirement is there. Learning German and adopting the values is a precondition for integration) and those that actually appreciate and honor that effort. Both is rather missing in many circles of German society today. What came first is a matter of debate, but cause and effect always is there.

It may also have to do with the fact that Germans showed a distinct lack of national pride in the past. That has changed profoundly the last 5 years or so, but that is too short a time span to make an impact to today's problems. Who wants to join a Nation that is defined by shame and self flagellation, after all?
And who do you want to blame for this problem? IMHO the issue is way more complex then ppl wish it to be, and lacks an honest attempt to analyze and find solutions.

Then again, and given that the word "race" has had a big comeback lately even in German mainstream media I wonder how much of old attitudes just lay dormant under a big pile of PC. Germany certainly has not developed more enlightend over the last 2 decades. Maybe reunification brought back some viewpoints that were never addressed in the former East Germany. That may also have to do with the fact that especially eastern Germany, with the lowest numbers of immigrants in all of Germany, is the most xenophobic one as well. Odd, if you think about it, but the liberal and future orientated achievements of the old BRD is currently getting replaced by more general 30ies attitudes (before the Nazis came to power). That one most certainly has to do with reunification and a need to find common ground, and Weimar is the last time Germans in one country could be comfortable with themselves. This development is understandable and to be expected in such a situation, but is subtle and lacks active debate, it just happens without anybody really realizing. The huge and sudden burst of anti EU and Euro sentiments also point in that direction. Most of these attitudes are only superficially based on facts and objectivity, most is based on raw and unreflected emotions.

P.S. I just remembered another observation. In the company I worked for, I had a long debate with a guy of italian/polish background. He came to Germany at the age of 5, speaks perfect german, blonde hair, blue eyes, christian background, also lots of work ethics. At the age of 24 he already got into a meeting with Electronic Arts about a project he envisioned. He could be considered the perfect immigrant. Yet even he considers himself almost radically polish and wants to move back soon. Apparently he faced the same problems many turks experienced in their childhood, mockery for his background. This debate started a thought process that got me to today's conclusions. What folks experience in their childhood obviously has a profound effect on their world views in later ages and expecting them to behave rational would require to be rational oneself, first.

[Gerald]

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Vendor

I see what ya did tharr!

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

I see what ya did tharr!

I'm getting hungry,

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values.

The integration of Muslims into Western society has failed, and will never occur to the extent necessary for them to function successfully in Western society. The reason is that a vast majority of them have not fulfilled all three of the criteria that are necessary for becoming members of, and feeling at home in, our non-Islamic societies:

1. Wanting to integrate
2. Being allowed to integrate
3. Being able to integrate

Firstly, we must ask ourselves: Why should Muslims want to integrate? They're sure to receive all possible welfare benefits, whether they educate themselves, work, learn our language, acknowledge Western values and mix socially with the native population, or not. Lack of integration does not involve any risk of becoming socially or culturally isolated, because there are ample opportunities to live with others in a parallel society where all share the same cultural norms as themselves.
Secondly, it is important to know that Muslim culture is dominated by extreme social and religious control. Because of the great differences (and often even incompatibilities) that exist between Western culture and the Muslim way of life, it is commonplace for members of the Muslim community to see true integration - including making use of basic human rights and freedoms to freely chose one’s clothing, sexual partners, religion, geographic location, lifestyle, etc - as being forms of religious and/or cultural apostasy.

Thirdly, integration is difficult for Muslims. The cultural and educational level of our high-tech knowledge society is very high. In the West, we are expected to regulate our own behaviour without having an aggressive God, an unpleasant Hell, all pervading social control, and aggressive male authorities to set the borders of what is and what is not acceptable and to motivate us towards constructive actions.
Integration does not mean giving up your religion, culture, ideals or principles. It means accepting that you have a positive role to play in the society you are a member of.

[Skybird]

Feuer Frei! ,

^ Very well said.

I just again would add and remind of the fact that it is not only a problem of Islamic ideology and indoctrination by it's different and supremacist values, but also - on a level beside Islam - a problem of patriarchalic social structures, and macho-cult, both of wich are helped and fostered by Islamic ideology, but not exclszuively caused by it. Even without Islam existing, they would pose problems, just maybe not on that scale as they actually do.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

The integration of Muslims into Western society has failed, and will never occur to the extent necessary for them to function successfully in Western society. The reason is that a vast majority of them have not fulfilled all three of the criteria that are necessary for becoming members of, and feeling at home in, our non-Islamic societies:

1. Wanting to integrate
2. Being allowed to integrate
3. Being able to integrate

Firstly, we must ask ourselves: Why should Muslims want to integrate? They're sure to receive all possible welfare benefits, whether they educate themselves, work, learn our language, acknowledge Western values and mix socially with the native population, or not. Lack of integration does not involve any risk of becoming socially or culturally isolated, because there are ample opportunities to live with others in a parallel society where all share the same cultural norms as themselves.
Secondly, it is important to know that Muslim culture is dominated by extreme social and religious control. Because of the great differences (and often even incompatibilities) that exist between Western culture and the Muslim way of life, it is commonplace for members of the Muslim community to see true integration - including making use of basic human rights and freedoms to freely chose one’s clothing, sexual partners, religion, geographic location, lifestyle, etc - as being forms of religious and/or cultural apostasy.

Thirdly, integration is difficult for Muslims. The cultural and educational level of our high-tech knowledge society is very high. In the West, we are expected to regulate our own behaviour without having an aggressive God, an unpleasant Hell, all pervading social control, and aggressive male authorities to set the borders of what is and what is not acceptable and to motivate us towards constructive actions.
Integration does not mean giving up your religion, culture, ideals or principles. It means accepting that you have a positive role to play in the society you are a member of.

I'd agree to you if I were convinced what you describe here are root causes, not just symptoms of a deeper problem. The debate over integration has indeed developed in the direction you explained, but it leaves some other points unanswered.

First one, as stated before, the first and second generation actually tried to integrate, despite the conditions you describe present back then as well.

So the question remains, what happened that the third and forth generations went back to Islam, and not even their parents Islam, but a radicalized and idealized form of Islam more found in the internet then in reality?

Why is it that those Germans with a Muslim background that actually managed to get a higher education and accepting German values, why is it that exactly these folks are leaving the country again?

You know I'd like to have a simple world view where a whole group of people can be described with three simple sentences and thus propper solutions as well, would make the issue a lot simpler to resolve. But those points described above above keep nagging me all the time.

Feuer frei.
Most of your arguement is pretty identical to just about every arguement put forward about practicly every group of immigrants since the beginning of history.
As such it is pretty much total bollox just like it has been throughout history, but of course Skybird likes it and thinks its "very well said" as he has this thing about blacks and muslims and arabs and africans and turks and of course germans that ain't the right sort of germans

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

First one, as stated before, the first and second generation actually tried to integrate, despite the conditions you describe present back then as well.

Did they? There were many gust workers since the 50s, from Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy, Turkey. Most Yugos, Greek and Italians sooner or later went back and never had the itnention to stay forever, and those who stayed all in all generally are well-integrated. Just the Turks came to stay forever, and one must doubt yopur claim that they tried toi integrate from beginning on. They stayed separate from beginning on, and this separatism is the reason why parallel society formed up which isolated themselves from German main society. This found its impression in fialing school education for the offsprings from these families, even more since these parents are not used to help in school-educating their kids like it is necessary, not helping them to adopt foreign customs and culture, and did not care much for what happened at sachool. Result: lower chances for school diploma, and job chances. Social decline. Result from that: growing isolationism, a group feeling of "us" against "them". "Us" means "us poor Muslim victims, the reatest and most misunderstood victims of all history", "them" means "those pig-eating hell-doomed Scheißdeutsche", "those German slutty whores" that make "so marvellous a f#ck". At the same time they are refused in their Turkish home country as well.

And then comes Mr. Islam and says: "By simply converting to my teaching or being an obedient vasall to me, you will no longer a looser, but belong to a special group of people that will rule the world and that are preferred by God that loves them, and you will be loved by all your brothers and sisters and you will be the Herren of the world to which all other humans that are infidels are inferior, and must bow their knees". Dadda-Bang! Bull's Eye! All for free! As a Muslim, all of a sudden you are somebody, from nothing to jackpot in no time!

Turks form the overwhelming majority of Muslim people in Germany. There must be reason why in Germany other foreigners try better to imntegrate and for the most are better integrated and are not overreporesented in negative statistics (education, job, crime), like Muslim groups. It is not that Germans said: "Back then we kicked the Jews, no we slap the Muslims".

Has it ever come to your mind that not only they do not wish to integrate,m but that germans have a good reason to remain sceptical of them anbd not wanting them in return? The social engineering experiment of turning the totalitarian, moncultural ideology of Islam into a tolerant, multicultural message of peaceful living togteher on the basis of equal rights not only for Islam (which constantly demands special status and special rights), but for ALL, has failed not becasue Germans slap all migrants. we have massive problems not with migrants in general, but with Muslim migrants - a majority of them. And it has become an extremely costly economical problem as well.

Why is it that those Germans with a Muslim background that actually managed to get a higher education and accepting German values, why is it that exactly these folks are leaving the country again?

You might be surprised that these are often those Muslims who were willing to integrate, were caring indeed for their kids getting good education - and who were warning the Germans time and again that they were too illusianl and too soft on not demanding the non-integrating Turks to integrate nevertheless, and sanctionise them if they do not. They tell us they we are too forgiving, and that we have a wrong, too friendly view of Islam! They see no chan ce for themselves in ermany due to the overburdened social systems and the fact that the non-integrating Muslims are those who defione the rules of how Muslim migrants behave in Germany. It is fair to say that many of those leaving Germany, not only flee from German intolerance, but flee from their own people.

BTW, we have a general brain drain and craftsmen drain in Germany, due to the bad labour market and low wages, if jobs are to be gotten. Especially doctors and craftsmen flee from Germany in significant numbers.

You know I'd like to have a simple world view where a whole group of people can be described with three simple sentences and thus propper solutions as well, would make the issue a lot simpler to resolve. But those points described above above keep nagging me all the time.

I realsie there are in diovidual exceptions from the rule. But they are not the majority, but a minority, and not even a big minority. They are not loud enough (cannot or do not wish to be) to keep those who actively refuse integration and demand special rights given to Turks and Islam in check. The active propagators of the non-integrators, also are not the majority. The majority are the many who hide and duck and stay silent and separate, passively refusing integration and relativisation of their Turkish values while living in a German cultural context. But this slent majority is a majority the activists can reliably count on - becasue by not dojng anatyhing against them the silent ones allow the activists to speak in their name and form the official "voice" of Islam in Germany. The political-Islamic panel the government has introduced two years ago, is dominated by the speakers from the Turkish national religion ministry (it'S proxy agencies in Germany), and small groups representing almost completely extremely radical groups and organisations - that do not officially speak fpor the majority of Muslims in Germany, but claim to do so. And the politicians accept, this, have banned several competent Muslim Islam-critics from the board for disturbing the illusion of peace and mutual tolerance, and swallow the lies the radicals are pouring into their ears. That way, the understanding of what Islam is and wants, gets constantly distorted and concealed. The silent majority, and the educated, integrated minority, do not much agaiunst this, if anything at all. Anbd where they do or apostates raise their voice from their ranks, warning thre Germans of trusting Islam and giving ground to it, they get bashed and witch-hunted through the village - not by Muslims, but the German left and the Greens and the Multikulti-faction and the PC brigade and the Eurocrats, and the german self-labelled pseudo-intellectual "elites", and of course the editors in the feuilletons of the newspapers.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I know perfectly well what you mean, and I know that it doesn't really make any sense.


Those two claims were so ludicrous it is self evident that they were complete nonsense.

I have provided evidence for my claims. The burden of evidence is now on you. Just saying my claims are false is not going to work.

A Dutch tradition that still existss in a few Dutch places.
So that would be a Dutch tradition as it is a Dutch tradition and its Dutch because its in the Netherlands and the people whose tradition it is are errrrr.....Dutch.

No you didn't, you demonstrated yourself having a mental block again.

Right.... and growing a beard is an American tradition because the Amish do so

Interesting link, did you notice the bit in there about Dutch culture.

I did. Did you?

As for your statisitics, they are meaningless, you made a claim about Turkish and Arabic women you see, so a statistic about all turkish women means nothing.

I made an observation, using that observation to form a claim about Turkish and Arabic women in general. So a statistic about Turkish women in general exactly matches with what my claim was about. In case you didn't notice, the statistics back up what I claim.

Seriously, this is the fallacy of all fallacies. Person D claims X and presents evidence for it. Now person T claims the evidence is false because it proofs that X is true

Besides which you need to explore the warped perception angle as the simple fact is you notice headscarfs more rather than see them more.

Indeed. Statistics show I see an astonishing 4% more headscarfs than there really are

So far I havn't had to as you dig yourself into a hole.

Burden of evidence, Tribesman, burden of evidence....

Sorry but you did, which is why it was a perfect example.
You made lots of claims about Turks doing things, added the qualification that of course not all Turks do those things but made the very foolish claim that Germans don't do those things

If you're under the impression that I made those claims you have misunderstood my claims as much as you can misunderstand them. Maybe I didn't write them down clearly enough so that your mind can grab its all too simple meaning, but I never meant to claim what you say I do.

Why do you have to lie? I said you appeared to know bugger all about the dutch laws at issue and you proved me correct by not even being able to understand the law or even identify the correct branch of laws even thogh your fathers summons and specific charge was on the link.

What do you mean "lie"? Did you not claim to be some kind of expert on Dutch law?
Also your memory appears to fail. Maybe you want to see a doctor? As I told you at the time, my dad was originally charged with something else than the link said.

Excuse me, you claimed a verdict of guilty was really a not guilty verdict.

And elephants are blue.

Well done.
Now see if you can understand how those figures are reached?
After all a reported suspect only means one thing

Yes I can. Apparently you can not.

But anyways, I've found another statistic which corrects for the size of the populations: http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/FA26E...minaliteit.pdf (look at page 30-43)
Now the burden of evidence is even more on you than it already was.

Not at all, if anything I would have expected them to be higher, as I said above, they only mean one thing.

They mean exactly one thing that you have proven unable to understand.

Sorry, your claim was that Germans don't do that sort of thing.
See what I mean about digging yourself into a hole.

As I have said a few quote-blocks above, I didn't claim that. Now where's that hole you speak of?

It certainly did, all you had to do was look and think but you simply wouldn't as to do so would have demolished your own claims.

Maybe I did look and think and the result of that backed up my claims. But the possibility of that escapes your small mind.

Do you even realise what you had written and what it related to that you had previously written?

I do. Now do you realize what you had previously written?



Tribesman, I've provided more than enough evidence for my claims. The burden of evidence is now on you. Either provide some evidence, or I can't see why I'm still having this discussion.