German police arrest 22 in neo-Nazi internet raid

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by tater

These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for.

It's not what they fought for. They all had very different reasons to fight. To continue with your civil war analogy, some soldiers may indeed have fought to keep slavery. Others fought to defend their "fatherland" against the north. Others fought to defend their families and beloved ones. Others may have fought simply for the money or the thrill. And many others fought simply because they were conscripted.

You say that fighting for a country would automatically mean fighting for its government. That would be the same as saying that all patriots in the US army are fighting for Obama.
You're saying that German soldiers should have defected/surrendered if they were against the Nazis. That would be the same as saying all US soldiers who are against Obama should defect/surrender.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

And many others fought simply because they were conscripted.

People fight because they are told to fight and back then (and perhaps today) there is a respect for Nationalism.

If your country calls for your service, you provide it.

It is tough to explain.

Originally Posted by Platapus

If your country calls for your service, you provide it.

It is tough to explain.

Right! And when someone calls for extermination of others you don`t think, you agree. Very easy way of living by letting someone else think for you, and thats one of main goals of nationalism.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

Right! And when someone calls for extermination of others you don`t think, you agree. Very easy way of living by letting someone else think for you, and thats one of main goals of nationalism.

I hope never to be put in that position. Fortunately, our genocide period was over long before I was born. But that would be a difficult decision. I hope I would be able to make the "right" decision.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

Right! And when someone calls for extermination of others you don`t think, you agree. Very easy way of living by letting someone else think for you, and thats one of main goals of nationalism.

They didn't call for extermination, they called to fight for the fatherland. You really think that the German military was all about killing Jews? It was mainly about defending your fatherland. Defending your families. Defending your very own life.

[MH]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

They didn't call for extermination, they called to fight for the fatherland. You really think that the German military was all about killing Jews? It was mainly about defending your fatherland. Defending your families. Defending your very own life.

vWhat about open discrimination of Jews before the war.
Taking all their rights as German citizens?
Beating them on the streets taking over businesses that was up to moral standard of average German as it seems.
It was done in open for all to see.
There is a thin line between the above and mass murder.
Since Germans at the time had no serious problem with that Hitler could be quite confident to move into mass extermination.
Sure its difficult to judge people who lived in those times but just the German discipline and maybe culture of blind obedience has something to do with it?
It was very easy to turn militaristic society into Nazi.

[Penguin]

I think it's fair to say that the Germans had a hunch what was going on in the Reich. Hitler's goals were available for anyone to read. What happened after 1933, where the rights of many people got infringed, to use a nice expression, was visible. People knew that they can be taken away for speaking out their opinion, they had neighbours disappearing, saw destroyed shops and street violence.
Here comes the human factor into play:
- people only want to see what they like to see. Maybe only subconscious, there is the factor of denial. "What is not supposed to happen, doesn't happen!"
- the survival instinct is one of the strongest instincs of us. People do astonishing acts of bravery and also of cowardice due to it.
- what MH pointed out: it was a time and society where authority was not questioned, neither in school, family or in the military
- indoctrination & propaganda: maybe the weakest factor, as no propaganda survices the first check with reality (or a battlefield).

Of course was not every soldier a Nazi. What DarkFish has said, as confusing as it sounds today. Though Germany started an attack war, many soldiers thought they were defending their country and that they were fighting for a just cause. Since 1934 every soldier did an oath on Hitler, not on the constitution. Every German soldier was a legitimate target to fight against national socialism though.

To make my point clear and to show the shades of grey between black & white, I'll share the story of a great man who was in the war and I had the honour to know after lunch.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Though Germany started an attack war, many soldiers thought they were defending their country and were fighting for a just cause.

They were not fighting for a just cause. The Confederates might have thought they were fighting for a just cause, but they were wrong. They were fighting for the right to own human beings. The Germans—all of them—were fighting for the right to murder people based on surname. They may have deluded themselves otherwise, but that's what it boiled down to.

This fact is the true horror of Nazi Germany. If millions were fooled by a few it is a lot less scary that millions of people who were otherwise decent people enabling (or actively participating in) genocide. The pattern appears in other genocide/democide as well. Regular people doing horrible things.

Failure to recognize this is a real problem if the goal is to not let genocide happen going forward. Placing the blame on a tiny handful and ignoring the culpability of the masses of active and passive enablers is dangerous.

Personal accounts by anyone who has an interest in not looking like an accomplice to genocide (which is virtually everyone) are suspect, and must be filtered under the assumption they will try and minimize their culpability.

Note that I similarly impugn my own country WRT slavery, which was also horrific.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

They didn't call for extermination, they called to fight for the fatherland. You really think that the German military was all about killing Jews? It was mainly about defending your fatherland. Defending your families. Defending your very own life.

So this is how it happen... oh my. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself. So Poland atacked Germany, not the other way around. And the poor Germans march in the streets of Berlin and shout "We are innocent....zig fail".
Welcome to "Alice in Wonderworld".

[Méo]

War was only part of their policy which means it could not be defined as good or bad, it was all about decisions and consequences.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

So this is how it happen... oh my. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself.

Perhaps they were defending their country against the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles?

I am not opining on whether one side is "right" or "wrong" at this time.

But I hardly think the German government just decided one day "hey, nutton else on TV, let's invade Europe for the hell of it"

There are always reasons for war. Look at the US, we always fight defensive or retaliatory wars... depending on the word defensive and retaliatory.

No one just "starts" a way without having some reason... even if they have to manufacture it.

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps they were defending their country against the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles?

I am not opining on whether one side is "right" or "wrong" at this time.

But I hardly think the German government just decided one day "hey, nutton else on TV, let's invade Europe for the hell of it"

There are always reasons for war. Look at the US, we always fight defensive or retaliatory wars... depending on the word defensive and retaliatory.

No one just "starts" a way without having some reason... even if they have to manufacture it.

By how? Build weapon of mass destruction, and repeat the same thing which cause treaty of Versailles to take place. Maybe it was a excuse after all . War for Nazi Germany was all about land space, so claiming that it was a self defence its quite pathetic. You can check the historycal data regarding the subject and see for your self.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps they were defending their country against the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles?

I am not opining on whether one side is "right" or "wrong" at this time.

But I hardly think the German government just decided one day "hey, nutton else on TV, let's invade Europe for the hell of it"

There are always reasons for war. Look at the US, we always fight defensive or retaliatory wars... depending on the word defensive and retaliatory.

No one just "starts" a way without having some reason... even if they have to manufacture it.

You are 100% right but the thing/problem is that he turned a war that may had some justification into war for living space of master race.
Hitler was backed up with mass hysteria love until wehrmacht got its ass kicked on eastern front or until his generals realised that the guy lost grip with reality and pushed too hard.
He had no serius oposition till things/dream of master race started go wrong and it was time to prepere to face consequences.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

So this is how it happen... oh my. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself. So Poland atacked Germany, not the other way around. And the poor Germans march in the streets of Berlin and shout "We are innocent....zig fail".
Welcome to "Alice in Wonderworld".

No, that's not what he was saying at all. He, like I, was saying that the average German believed he was defending his country. The were indeed told that Poland attacked Germany, and they believed it.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

No, that's not what he was saying at all. He, like I, was saying that the average German believed he was defending his country. The were indeed told that Poland attacked Germany, and they believed it.

Steve is correct.

But, moreover, the situation with Polish-German relations let alone Polish-European relations of that era is one that's largely overlooked today in history, unfortunately, by everyone.

The Poles had gone to the League of Nations to get them to award their country what parts of Silesia Germany had retained in 1921 (which was done), they had delivered an ultimatum to the Central Republic of Lithuania that demanded they hand over their territory and dissolve their government or risk war (to which the much smaller CRL complied) in 1922, and then they went back to the League of Nations in 1924, complaining about their border with Czechoslovakia (much as they had done with Germany three years previously)- after which they were awarded most of Nowy Targ County (the Czechs demanded beforehand that if this were to come to pass, that they receive in turn Sucha Gora and Glodowka in reutnr, and this was done thankfully).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo...of_Poland#1921
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo...of_Poland#1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo...of_Poland#1924

The Germans had initially been in the 1930s not so interested in taking over all of Poland as part of their foreign policy as much as they had been interested in taking back the provinces which had belonged to them (including Silesia, parts of Pomerania, the provinces along the Lower Oder River Valley, etc.). Primarily, they were focused on Danzig, because it was the province that would connect the heartland with their provinces that made up East Prussia (Konigsberg and Elbing) and because it had a HUGE ethnically German population (ethnic borders comprised a large part of their foreign policy's focus, just so you know- Austria and Czechoslovakia in particular).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ungsgebiet.jpg

So initially, they asked the Poles for Danzig. They said no. Then they pointed out that they had been awarded Silesia on the grounds of ethnicity, so it was only fair that Germany receive Danzig on the same grounds. The Poles still said no. The people of Danzig, however, finally said that they did not want to be a part of Poland; they wanted to be made a part of Germany.

The Poles responded by occupying them with several garrisons of troops, and by suppressing the government that was in place there (did I mention that Danzig was a self-governing city-state that had its own republican form of government- run by a President of the Senate in the Volkstag?).

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceu...g19191939.html

In August 1939, Joachim von Ribbentrop was sent to discuss the feasibility of getting the Soviets to help Germany invade Poland if they refused a final time to submit to Germany's demands. This decision was made around the theory that, since the operation would be in conjunction withe the Soviets, the United Kingdom and France (both of whom had guaranteed they would support Poland if an invasion by Germany took place) would not seek to protest the issue with anybody or hold up to their promises to the Poles, risking war (if they did) with both Germany AND the Soviet Union (and even assuming they did, the Germans knew then, at least, they would have security in the east so the bulk of its military could be devoted to beating the French and British in the west).

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=90

And the Soviets agreed, largely because they were pissed at the Poles for the war they'd fought with them back in 1919. Hence, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact came to existence in the late hours of August 23rd. The next few days saw Germany asking Poland one final time for Danzig and the other respective border provinces it wished to have, the British and French still voicing their support for the Poles, lots of general mobilizations of troops, and finally, on September 1st, war.

The rest is pretty straightforward. Poland was divided between Germany and the Soviet Union, and the British and French kept their word and declared war on Germany (this really is when the Second World War started- when three major world powers and numerously smaller nations that were a part of the British Commonwealth, such as Australia, Canada, Iraq, etc., faced off against one another).

Initially, the Germans made no attacks on the French or British on land, because the French and British made no attacks on them (see the "Phoney War"). This was largely in part due to the fact that the First World War's effects were still being felt in both countries, even 20+ years on. They had both become, as Hitler wrote, "politically and militarily weak".

But there was another reason: the Germans had not originally planned to go to war with either nation. In fact, they had originally dreamed of "sharing" Europe WITH them (they'd even gone through a period where they tried to be like the English in their mannerisms and they tried to be more culturally influential like the French, particularly with music and art), considering instead to expand eastward into the resource-rich areas of Russia.

Of course, in the end, it never worked out that way. Because of the outlook on Versailles and the outcome of the First World War, it was believed by most Germans that a ground war WITH the French and a decisive defeat on the English should be launched. And, in 1940, that's exactly what happened: it all blew up. The British and French decided that it was time to start thinking tactically about what countries it should concentrate on working with in order to beat the Germans, the Germans, in conjunction with this and their aforementioned feelings about Versailles, decided that it was time to fight back.

http://www.worldwariihistory.info/1940.html

The remaining five years of conflict are pretty self-explanatory. The end result of it all: 78,878,170 people died. There were lots of things that should have been done in the beginning that weren't, by both sides, that ultimately led to the war. The Poles should have given over the territory that rightfully belonged to Germany one of the two times it was requested, the British and French should not have decided to support such a minor country as Poland and should not have declared war on the Germans following Germany's invasion to take what belonged to them, and the Germans should not have decided to go on the offensive against the British and French in 1940.

Although the remaining five years, let alone this period of a few months, were vastly more complex than this brief explanation... ultimately, World War II was just as preventable as World War I. And it probably would have been for the better if it had been prevented.

EDIT:

One thing's for certain: 78,878,170 people would not have died.