1WO means...

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Tessa

Something that's been bugging me for a long time since someone made another comment about it, what is the chief's rank in Das Boot? At the beginning of the movie when he's wearing the black coat he's got 2 strikes and an officer hat. From that it looks like he's an Oberleutnant Z.s.

He's an Oberleutnant (Ing.), an engineering officer, and the Leitender Ingenieur (leading engineer) on the boat. An Oblt z. See would be a line officer, one who was in the chain of command. While the LI might be the second most important officer on a u-boat (after the kommandant) in a practical sense because his duties were so vital and all-encompassing in technical matters, he would never be in line for a command regardless of his rank. He might actually have the same rank as the kommandant, nevertheless a lower-ranking 1WO would be next in line of command if the kommandant were killed or incapacitated.

Engineering officers had a cogwheel (?) insignia on their uniforms, rather than a star, to indicate their specialty and distinguish them from line officers.

[JScones]

In some instances, particularly later in the war, the LI was higher in rank than the Commander, and certainly higher in rank than the 1WO.

The LI would never be considered for Commanding because he chose the Engineering officer stream rather than the Line officer stream. Much like the Doctor who chose the Medical officer stream (after it was created later in the war).

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

He's an Oberleutnant (Ing.), an engineering officer, and the Leitender Ingenieur (leading engineer) on the boat. An Oblt z. See would be a line officer, one who was in the chain of command. While the LI might be the second most important officer on a u-boat (after the kommandant) in a practical sense because his duties were so vital and all-encompassing in technical matters, he would never be in line for a command regardless of his rank. He might actually have the same rank as the kommandant, nevertheless a lower-ranking 1WO would be next in line of command if the kommandant were killed or incapacitated.

Engineering officers had a cogwheel (?) insignia on their uniforms, rather than a star, to indicate their specialty and distinguish them from line officers.

That's what I though, I've very familiar with the shoulder boards as I've got a few (real ones), getting a good or clear look at most of them is tough; especially when each different jacket/uniform they have might have a slightly different set of pips or the shoulder boards themselves were different - there were two types of shoulder boards, ones that were sewn onto the garment and a slip on type that were easy to take on or off (much rarer to find). The cogwheel is indeed for engineering, actually the graphics used in SH3 for all the qualifications are exactly like what the real ones were.

One thing I never understood is why he's not eligible for getting his own ship/command. I can understand that the medic or a radioman wouldn't be due to their specialized training and wouldn't be familiar with the workings of the ship. An engineer would know the ship inside and out, and be next to the captain in situations were he was issuing orders (like when moving while submerged). In the US the captain of a carrier is usually a (former) pilot, airboss, etc or on a BB the captain could come from any number of trades.

Something I find interesting, the guy who is always writting the love letters to his girlfriend is actually a Fanrich (at one point he's laying on his stomach on a bunk and can see the shoulder board clearly. It would make him senior to all the other NCO's but he's never treated as such.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Tessa

One thing I never understood is why he's not eligible for getting his own ship/command. I can understand that the medic or a radioman wouldn't be due to their specialized training and wouldn't be familiar with the workings of the ship.

Because he joined the engineering officer stream, not the line officer stream. Different training, different skills, different duty statement. He's trained as an engineer, not as a leader. The mere fact he signed up in the engineering stream might even imply that he wants nothing to do with commanding a boat, in much the same way that a guy signing up in the line officer stream might want nothing to do with tinkering with boat engines.

He's not just an officer who happens to have an engineering qualification, he's a career engineer.

Originally Posted by Tessa

An engineer would know the ship inside and out, and be next to the captain in situations were he was issuing orders (like when moving while submerged).

Knowing the mechanics of the ship does not automatically make him an effective leader. Completely different focus.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by JScones

Because he joined the engineering officer stream, not the line officer stream. Different training, different skills, different duty statement. He's trained as an engineer, not as a leader. The mere fact he signed up in the engineering stream might even imply that he wants nothing to do with commanding a boat, in much the same way that a guy signing up in the line officer stream might want nothing to do with tinkering with boat engines.

He's not just an officer who happens to have an engineering qualification, he's a career engineer.

It makes more sense now, was thinking about some friends of mine that are on active duty and a couple are specialist in their field (not just someone that's doing that job because they've been assigned to it) and all they do and focus on is their trade/rating. They can still fire a rifle, but would have no clue how to direct artillery fire or some other common position. Just seems strange to go the officer/command route you choose no trade at all and are like a gopher until you get admitted to OCS.

[Mittelwaechter]

@sailor steve

Obersteuermann is the correct naming for Kriechbaum's rank.
He follows a Steuermann (Navigator) career - a specialist career - and the rank is equivalent to Oberfeldwebel (master sergeant) in the common army ranking system.
A radio operator career (Funker in German) of the same rank would be Oberfunkmeister.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Mittelwaechter

@sailor steve

Obersteuermann is the correct naming for Kriechbaum's rank.
He follows a Steuermann (Navigator) career - a specialist career - and the rank is equivalent to Oberfeldwebel (master sergeant) in the common army ranking system.
A radio operator career (Funker in German) of the same rank would be Oberfunkmeister.

Looking over the chart supplied by Draka I see that now. Thanks for the explanation, and the correction. The things we think we know...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tessa

It makes more sense now, was thinking about some friends of mine that are on active duty and a couple are specialist in their field (not just someone that's doing that job because they've been assigned to it) and all they do and focus on is their trade/rating. They can still fire a rifle, but would have no clue how to direct artillery fire or some other common position. Just seems strange to go the officer/command route you choose no trade at all and are like a gopher until you get admitted to OCS.

Where are you from? I ask because the system used in the KM is paralleled in the Royal Navy. In the sailing-ship days a gunner was considered something of a wizard, with magical abilities that separated him from real sailors; hence he was exempt from all regular sailor duties.

When steam came into common use the same thing happened. An engineer is not a real sailor, which means he is both more and less than the regular command structure. He isn't trained in anything to do with the running of the ship, and other officers aren't trained in engineering.

The reason I asked where you are from is that if you are American, none of that makes sense, because in the US navy officers aren't specialists. On my ship we had a Radio Officer; over him was a Comm officer, and over him was the XO. We also had an engineering officer, but these were all officers learning different jobs, and they all had pretty much the same career track, and barring stupid mistakes and bad luck they would all someday be an exec and then a captain.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Where are you from? I ask because the system used in the KM is paralleled in the Royal Navy. In the sailing-ship days a gunner was considered something of a wizard, with magical abilities that separated him from real sailors; hence he was exempt from all regular sailor duties.

When steam came into common use the same thing happened. An engineer is not a real sailor, which means he is both more and less than the regular command structure. He isn't trained in anything to do with the running of the ship, and other officers aren't trained in engineering.

The reason I asked where you are from is that if you are American, none of that makes sense, because in the US navy officers aren't specialists. On my ship we had a Radio Officer; over him was a Comm officer, and over him was the XO. We also had an engineering officer, but these were all officers learning different jobs, and they all had pretty much the same career track, and barring stupid mistakes and bad luck they would all someday be an exec and then a captain.

I'm from the US, I used to work on one a naval base as a contractor in the super computer center. Have got several friends on active duyt, or a couple that have just come back from their deployments, I think a better way to define it was not specialist but career path. From your logic, someone from JAG could get a command once their reach commander/captain. Some people are just not fit to command a ship when they've spent the last 20 years in a courtroom to get their rank.

I apologize for the mixup, I see that what I wanted to say came out very wrong and not what I was trying to say. As your example, the comm officer on the ship could very well get a command someday. What I was trying to get across is that there are several careers/jobs in which you will never step foot on a boat you 20 years. Once they get their proper rank, do you think it's wise/fair then to give the keys to a ship a who is a lawyer or nuclear engineer(the ones that design the cores, not the onboard ones that monitor the one on their ship?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tessa

I apologize for the mixup, I see that what I wanted to say came out very wrong and not what I was trying to say. As your example, the comm officer on the ship could very well get a command someday. What I was trying to get across is that there are several careers/jobs in which you will never step foot on a boat you 20 years. Once they get their proper rank, do you think it's wise/fair then to give the keys to a ship a who is a lawyer or nuclear engineer(the ones that design the cores, not the onboard ones that monitor the one on their ship?

A good point, and one that escaped me. I guess we do have our own versions of the 'technical wizards'.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Tessa

Something I find interesting, the guy who is always writting the love letters to his girlfriend is actually a Fanrich (at one point he's laying on his stomach on a bunk and can see the shoulder board clearly. It would make him senior to all the other NCO's but he's never treated as such.

I don't think someone at the rank would be considered senior to all the NCOs - he's on the track to be a CO, but not there yet, and thus wouldn't get "officer status" in the field. As noted upthread there's really no exact equivalent for the rank in US/UK navy terms but it seems like his position would be roughly the same as a midshipman in the US Navy. As a Fähnrich and not an Oberfähnrich he'd probably fall right where his bunk assignment indicates, among the less-senior NCOs.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I don't think someone at the rank would be considered senior to all the NCOs - he's on the track to be a CO, but not there yet, and thus wouldn't get "officer status" in the field. As noted upthread there's really no exact equivalent for the rank in US/UK navy terms but it seems like his position would be roughly the same as a midshipman in the US Navy. As a Fähnrich and not an Oberfähnrich he'd probably fall right where his bunk assignment indicates, among the less-senior NCOs.

My bad, they would probably best resemble a warrant officer rank until they become a leutnant.

Here's a comprehensive chart for the navy:

I apologize for the clipping on the file, the page was written in html and hard to figure out a way to get it displayed on this site. The Chief Petty Officer Row (completely missing) and bottom of the Warrant officer 1st class are clipped

To see the whole list correctly click here

http://pelsia.741.com/source.html




Sorry about the ads, I don't have any easily accessible webspace around and just needed something quick.

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by Tessa

My bad, they would probably best resemble a warrant officer rank until they become a leutnant.

Here's a comprehensive chart for the navy:

The US Navy side of this chart is wrong in the enlisted ranks. A Petty Officer First Class outranks a Petty Officer Second, and so on. A Seaman First Class outranks a Second, who outranks an Apprentice. Left out here, too, are Senior and Master Chief Petty Officers.

Otherwise, I think part of the problem here is trying to make a simple "top-to-bottom" rank chart, which is simply not possible in the US and UK navies, since midshipmen are/were sort of an intake route to officership. Midshipmen simply don't exist in that hierarchy.

If they did in the German navy ranks, at that time, of course, is another question.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by desirableroasted

Otherwise, I think part of the problem here is trying to make a simple "top-to-bottom" rank chart, which is simply not possible in the US and UK navies, since midshipmen are/were sort of an intake route to officership. Midshipmen simply don't exist in that hierarchy.

If they did in the German navy ranks, at that time, of course, is another question.

I'm guessing the status of officer candidates in the KM was about the same. They're in a special category - not enlisted men, but not yet COs, and it sure doesn't seem like they occupied some hypothetical rung in the ladder above the former but just below the latter. Or were accorded the kind of status when serving in a crew that one might expect if that were the case.

[Draka]

Think of middies as your (very) younger brother - always underfoot, not quite coordinated enuf to actually DO anything with you and your friends, but Mommy INSISTS you let him tag along .....

Middies in all navies are strictly makee-learnee, not in any formal chain of command but strictly there to learn and get some experience. Back in the days of sailing ships, a middie in the RN might actually be given some duties and responsibilities in the smaller ships, but to my knowledge not in any Navy in the "modern" age.